There’s alot of crazy links in ST (or SF2 in general) I keep hearing about/discover that I am no longer surprised by various links people use/come up with. I’m pretty sure the shorts -> cr. rh is something Ryu can normally do, but by the time I get to the 3rd hit I’m usually at max range for the roundhouse to connect.
So… anyone mind telling explaining exactly what the practicallity of Honda’s command throw storage is? Is it mainly for when he’s turtling so that if people try to walk->throw they get grabbed?
That cr.short to cr.roundhouse link works, but it’s not exactly practical. I remember the computer using it all the time in the SNES version of Super. I tried it out myself and eventually got it to work although, iirc, it’s pretty tight. And two cr. forwards won’t link unless it’s meaty either by way of meaty wakeup move or trip guard anti-air. My guess is that caliagent saw the later.
There are no A3 or CvS2 style “counter hits” in SF2 apart from maybe hitting WW Blanka out of ball.
As far as what James Chen’s guide says about jump attacks all sharing the same block and stun frames, the recent frame data that was translated contradicts him so it’s kinda up in the air.
Edit:
Re Margalis: Yeah that’s a big part of my game with Guile against shotos. It’s risky, but it works if done right and is often necessary to regain the upper hand. Then once you have them in the corner you can really start fucking with them.
Sac throws work and have a place. For example if you are Guile, and you throw a sonic boom and Ken/Ryu jumps over it. If you do a low fierce and they do an early air attack they will at least trade or often stuff you low fierce. So instead you can just walk into the attack, take the hit and throw. They won’t get a combo because they hit you too high. Technically I supposed this would work just as well if you walked forward then blocked on the last possible frame, but even then I’m not sure. As someone mentioned, block stun may be longer than hit stun in those cases. It certainly does feel that way to me.
That is when the people I know would sac throw, to sac throw jump-ins. Trying to sac throw a tick attempt is a pretty bad idea in general, for a variety of reasons.
Against:
Block the first hit (be it jump kick, cr.short etc) and buffer the oochio motion holdin db. Then just rap on the punches so as soon as he attempts to throw u after one short, two or three etc u’ll throw him first if in range.
For:
If ur the tick thrower u can do jump kick or cr.strong etc, buffer motion holdin db, rap on punches and u’ll be throwin him on the first available frame he can be thrown thus makin it harder to reverse.
…and walking into a jump attack on purpose is a good idea?? I say you should at least throw out an attack to try and force them to hit you high. The risk of them attacking late is a pretty big one… but if you know, well…
I have a question about the Anniversary Collection…is the game close enough to ST if you only use the ST and TNC versions of the characters? Whenever I find info about why this isn’t a good ST port, the biggest reasons I hear are the problems with things like WW Guile and CE Bison…but what if you don’t use any of those versions at all?
I’ll go with whatever NKI says, he’s really on the mark with all these technical questions and it all makes sense. He’s dispelling a lot of myths. Back in the older days there wasn’t access to frame data and it was tougher to go frame by frame, and so on. We had to come up with crazy theories to explain things. I think the Japanese were way ahead when it comes to this stuff.
AE restricted to SUPERT and SUPER isn’t a good ST clone. Yes, the O.Sagat players would have a real problem with it. In AE, you can’t soften the old characters throws, where in ST you can soften them. Is that a good thing though? It’s interesting.
Capcom threw the game (AE) together fairly quickly is seems, there wasn’t much attention to detail. They probably thought they were weakening CE Bison, if you notice his psycho crusher doesn’t have as many blocked hits as the original, but because of the extra gaps, it becomes a crossup.
It’s not even a good HF clone, since the engine is different. in the real HF, Ken could low short, chain into standing fierce, then 2in1 into jab uppercut and this worked, as there was no bounce-off after the fierce. In AE, it uses the SSF2 and beyond engine and the uppercut whiffs because of the bounceoff.
Sac throwing is not a legitmate strategy. Its only use is to do something strange in an effort to make your opponent do something dumb (ie hit too high when jumping in etc) so that you can take advantage of their mistake.
With Oicho stored, all you have to do is hold down/back (so you’re safely blocking), and release punches (so that no move will whiff in case Oicho doesn’t come out). For example:
Ryu has forced you to block something, and now you must guess between DP or throw. If you simply store Oicho, then release the punches at reversal time, you win no matter what Ryu does. If he went for the throw, you will throw him. If he did a DP, you will block safely. This also works when you are on the offense. Force the opponent to block something, then store Oicho and release the punches. The only thing they can do is counter throw you, but you should be safely out of their range unless it’s Gief or Hawk (and you shouldn’t be tick throwing those two anyway).
But there’s no reason to take the hit when you could just block and still get a free throw…
I specifically remember someone old school (maybe Apoc? I don’t remember) saying that with Boxer vs. Claw, if Boxer goes for [throw, walk under cr.Forward, throw), it’s better for Claw to get hit than to block the cr.Forward, because it’s “easier” to reverse if you get hit.
Yet no one has ever given any kind of evidence for how or why taking the hit makes it “easier” or gives you an “advantage” over blocking. You’re in the same situation either way, so there’s no reason to take that unnecessary damage.
(I don’t know why you wouldn’t just do the obvious: before the meaty cr.Forward, as you’re landing, reversal throw Boxer. It’s free.)
As I said earlier, for every move I’ve ever tested, block-stun is a mear one frame longer, but that doesn’t give you any kind of disadvantage. The reversal properties are still the same, and you still get a free throw.
You don’t want to be hitting the punches, because if your opponent does an invinicble reversal (DP, Bull Charge, super, etc), you’re going to get hit. Releasing the buttons is the way to go.
Yes, that was Apoc. He said that taking the hit throws off the person’s timing. This fucked with my head as I’d always thought hitstun=blockstun so I asked him and he said that sometimes hitstun>blockstun and also vice versa. As for simply throwing before the cr.fwd, makes complete sense, perhaps the fwd is down outside of vega’s throw range. Dunno if Apoc thought of this but for what it’s worth he also stated in that thread:
Doesn’t this only apply to when ur ticking? Suppose someone’s ticking u and they do cr.short and u let go but they do another cr.short u won’t get the throw. Or do u hold 3 punches and release one at a time. Rapping the buttons can solve this problem but can’t protect u from the mighty DP. Bleh, either way, I guess releasing is the way to go.
And now onto a totally unrelated note pls list the motions for:
Ryu’s St.Fierce into Shinkuu and
Guile’s cr.shortx3 into Super thanx
Experience tells me that taking a jump kick and throwing is easier than blocking and throwing. There are a couple different reasons why that may be the case:
1: Block stun is longer than hit stun
2: Blocking an attack pushes you further back than getting hit
3: Holding towards and taking the hit puts you as close as possible, whereas holding back does not.
3 is a completely non-technical reason. If that is true, theoretically you could walk forward and then hold back on the frame you would be hit, and still get the sac throw just the same. I suspect 3 is actually the reason.
Guile’s cr. short x 3 super is just a link. You just have to do the super as early as possible after the last cr. short (it’s easier if you roll your fingers on the three kick buttons). This combo is fairly easy to do, you just have to get the timing down.
I have never had a problem doing reversal throws out of block-stun. If taking the hit helps you, I dunno…I guess go for it, but I really think you’re taking unnecessary damage. (Have you considered just practicing reversal throwing out of block-stun?)
st.Fierce xx Shinkuu is done as:
D, D/F, F, slight pause, neutral+Fierce, then as fast as possible do QCF+punch
You need to leave enough time between your first QCF and st.Fierce so that it doesn’t register as a regular Hadouken, but you need to do the whole thing fast enough so that it registers as a super motion. It’s pretty hard, and I wouldn’t even bother practicing it or trying it in a real match. I say that even though I’ve been hit with [j.Fierce, st.Fierce xx Shinkuu] in a match…
For real? I knew he could link it off his cr.Strong, but I didn’t know about linking off his cr.Short. I always did it as a kara cancel (done the same way as N.Ken’s cr.Short->cr.Short xx Super).
Eishi is right, Guile’s super can be linked from c. short…but it’s hard!
About the whiff jump land throw thing–Bison has everyone beat. Whiffed jumping strongs that land you right behind your opponent lead to an almost guaranteed throw for Bison. Think I’m nuts? Try that bad boy out.
Is that why I always win the throw after that?? I thought it was maybe just my opponent messing up… I told them to keep trying. I guess that was kinda evil of me.
What if we just perceive AE is a good fix to the original SSF2? From a SSF2 perspective solely, AE seems pretty good because it actually allows you to play that mode with the speed it should have originally had. Sure, AE fails in the CE, HF, and ST department. But I think it pulled off SSF2 quite well, which is still old skool.
I say you should at least throw out an attack to try and force them to hit you high. The risk of them attacking late is a pretty big one… but if you know, well…
