Super Street Fighter II Turbo, in the house

Classic Fighting Games Super Street Fighter II Turbo
524

I will test throw priority when I get home. I have tested this before (mapping both characters’ input to one button so that they throw on the same frame), and it is always random, but I know what Cole is talking about. It does seem like Chun has a much easier time throwing peeps after she does a whiffed jumping normal, but I don’t think that has anything to do with “throw priority”. I think she might just have fewer landing frames than other characters (where “landing frames” = frames where she can’t throw or block but she can be thrown). Again, I’m just speculating, so I’ll actually test it when I get home. There’s definitely some reason why it’s easier for Chun than for other characters.

Yeah, she has plenty of ways to stop the initial Chicken Wing. Far st.RH, jump straight up Short, jump back Forward kick, etc. The problem is if you get knocked down once and you’re anywhere near the corner, he can pretty much do [st.Fierce xx Chicken Wing] for the rest of the round. Chun has a few things she can do, but they are all super risky.

I dunno if I’ve ever talked about this in depth before, so here goes. This is the way it was explained to me by Tama…

Although it looks infinite, Fei can only do guaranteed [st.Fierce xx Chicken Wing] three times. Because he’s slowly getting pushed back a tiny bit each rotation. After the third Chicken Wing, if he tries to go for another st.Fierce, you can actually throw him. He said that after the third Chicken Wing, it’s a guessing game between Flame Kick (if he thinks you’ll try to throw), or take a step forward, then start the [st.Fierce xx Chicken Wing] for another three reps. (Each rep is doing good block damage, mind you.)

I have never tested that to see if it’s true or not. Tama is one of Japan’s best players, so I trust him, but even top players have crazy theories sometimes (for example, “sac throw” in America, which is just a myth).

I said that there are a few things Chun can do once she’s stuck in that trap. Her options are:

-upkicks: There is a crazy property of the Chicken Wing where you can actually stand block while holding D/B. You have to stand block the first hit of the Chicken Wing, then immediately hold D/B. Even though you’re holding D/B, Chun will stand block the next hit of the Chicken Wing (which is necessary, because it’s an overhead and can’t be duck blocked). This allows you enough time to charge upkicks by the time the next Chicken Wing comes around. The problem with this is that even though the upkicks will beat Chicken Wing cleanly, sometimes it just goes straight through Fei, he lands, then you fall helplessly into [st.Fierce xx Rekka Ken x3]. :tdown:

-jump straight up RH: This will usually just trade (at least it gets him off you), but it is extremely hard to time, and if you time it wrong, you get juggled by 3 hits of Chicken Wing, then he gets to start the trap on you again as you get up.

-far st.RH: This will actually beat Chicken Wing cleanly. The problem is that it is quite hard to do (seemingly random), and if you mess up, you eat [3 hits of Chicken Wing, st.Fierce xx Rekka Ken x3], which is about 50%-60% damage and probably dizzy and probably peace out…HELLA not worth the risk.

-walk forward to go under him: This only works if he is doing the RH version of Chicken Wing. A good Fei Will do the Forward (medium) version so that you can’t walk under it. This is why (as Tama said) he can only do it three times. You can do the RH version infinitely, but she can walk under at any time. Again, if you try to walk under him and he does the Forward (medium) version, you’ll eat the above combo, probably be dizzied, and probably lose the round.

-Spinning Bird Kick: Because it’s invincible, you can use SBK to make his Chicken Wing whiff. The problem is that because he recovers instantly from the Chicken Wing, he can simply cr.Jab you out of the SBK, then start the trap again. :sad:

I get the feeling I’m forgetting something…but that’s all I can think of now.

I usually just try to reverse throw. A lot of times the Fei player won’t get the timing perfect on the st.Fierce, so you can throw him. This is not guaranteed (Fei can do the st.Fierce for free if he times it right), but it works a lot of times. It’s actually not all bad if you get hit by a Flame Kick while trying to reverse throw, because then the Fei player gets the idea “Oh, he tries to reverse throw…I can catch him with Flame Kick”, and he’ll try to do that every once in a while, which creates an opening for Chun if you block it.

But I can remember one round I played against Noguchi where he just kept doing [st.Fierce xx Chicken Wing], and I kept thinking, “OK, now he’s gonna go for Flame Kick…”, so I didn’t try anything, but he just kept doing [st.Fierce xx Chicken Wing] over and over and over…the Flame Kick never came, and I took like 50% block damage and died. That guy is too cheap…:sad:

-Nicholai!

525

How is a sac throw a myth?

Walk up to Dhalsim, have him to a sliding low forward from right next to you, and hold towards and hit fierce - you’ll get a throw 99% of the time.

526

I think NKI was talking specifically about sac throwing the chicken kick.

527

what is a sac throw??

528

Quoted for emphasis. I’ve never heard of this.

529

Sacrifice throw…

Really old term, commonly applied to Zangief in early days… eg: “sac-spd”. Take the hit, then throw them.

I dunno if it increases throw “priority” at all, but main use I see is

  1. To get out of tick traps, like Sim’s slide-noogie trap, I have read/heard people say it makes the ensuing throw easier to counter if you get hit by the slide instead of blocking it …truth? No idea, and

  2. Against jump-ins. These on the other hand, are more of an option thing. The idea is that you go for your early anti-air, which forces them to hit you high (or they get hit), and because they hit you high you recover earlier and can throw them when they land. eg: Ryu jumps, Zangief does lariat, Ryu punches him in the face (high), Zangief SPDs ryu when he lands.

530

Hm, I seem to remember reading that there are a number of jumping moves and possibly other moves in SF2 that put you in more block stun than hit stun. If the jump in is early enough for them not to be able to combo, you’ll be back to neutral faster if you take the hit, and thus can throw them earlier, possibly before they even go back to neutral, I guess. That’s probably where the “sac throw” idea stems from.

edit: Seeing as I’ve only just picked up ST, here’s an incredibly scrubby question; which move IS the Chicken Wing?

531

I remember something now… this might have something to do with throws done at the same time. You know how when both sprites are close to each other and overlapping, it’s not random who overlaps whom, I think it has something to do with who made the last controller input or something. There’s a default at the start of the round where one side always overlaps the other (like if you started the round both guys walking towards one another. Anyways I seem to remember that of you both tried to throw at the same exact time, the throw was given to either the guy in the foreground, or the guy in the background, I can’t remember, it was a while back. But you can check it out, have the characters right up close and they’ll switch who’d in front of each other when one guy moves the stick. I might be mistaken, I just remember my brother showing me this several years ago.

532

I seem to remember NKI saying he tested this and it wasn’t true, at least not in ST.

533

I’ve done it a few times, my friend actually has me doing it on tape. I’ll see if he can find it to post

534

Ah well I guess it has nothing do do with anything except who gets drawn over the other. Oh and speaking of easy characters, how about Guile? He’s ideal for learning the game with.

535

I’d say yes too Guile except he kinda sucks if you don’t know what you’re doing. Well that’s just my opinion as a Guile player.

536

I never singled out Chun li as having an easier time to throw then everyone. I labled a few characters that have dominating throws in ST and can ‘get away’ with whiff jump , land throw. Blanka is clearly the best thrower in the game outside of Zangief SPD (but thats a command grab and doesnt count). Doesn’t matter what kind of tick you try on blanka, if the player is aware of a throw coming he will have a very easy time reversing your throw. To me, when dominate throw characters cross you up and try to throw…its usually messing up your throw timing and this is why you get tossed. Basically hitting the button a bit to early cause you think they are on the ground…then they actually land and get the throw off right through your move. Its all mind games and comes down to just throwing off your opponants timing. Although Blanka,Chun, Dhalsim , Honda andDJ have a far easier time then the other cast.

As for the ‘sac’ throw (lol) …taking the hit! In my old skool day i dont think i EVER heard this phrase so it must be a mid west or east coast thing. All we did was scream TAKE THE HIT!. That in itself is a very extreme mind game, cause oh how i love when players think they can take my low forward slide as dhalsim and think they can get an easy reverse. I have forever and a day to see the hit and link in a close forward or RH which will usually dizzy the opponant. Then follow up with a drill which most people block and then tick throw LOL. Taking the hit is very advanced and is such a major clutch decision in tournament play. It’s almost like psychic DP…you HOPE they are trying to tick you so u can get the easier time to reverse. You also HOPE that they don’t follow up with a combo and own your ass for letting yourself get hit from a meaty. Cause most ticks are meaty which can lead into a major damaging combo. In ST that means GG. All cause you wanted to take a hit from a dude tick throwing you all day.

J-Cole

537

What’s the difference between Ryu’s normal fireball and red fireball ? They seem to be the same in terms of startup, recovery, damage and speed so what’s the deal ?

538

Red stuns from far and knocks down from close… so if u trade a fast red fb at close range with a poke u score a knockdown and gain momentum.

Not a Ryu player but I think this may only pertain to his fast (fierce) fb. I know for a fact that a slow fireball at point blank can stun but I think the fb has to be meaty.

539

Read the thread foo!

Although, NKI said he tested it on ST and it didn’t work. Maybe it’s CPS1 only?

540

Just to make sure we’re talking about the same thing: with Ryu, from point blank (not a meaty), you claim you can do [cr.Forward, cr.Forward] for a two-hit combo? Two crouching medium kicks…? :confused:

The only definition I’ve ever heard for “sac throw” is where the opponent is trying to tick throw you, and you take the hit (instead of blocking), because somehow this supposedly gives you advantage or makes it easier to reversal throw.

I was talking about sac throws in general being a myth.

You should get the throw 100% of the time, because you get a free throw on him if he does that. But whether the slide is blocked or hit, it doesn’t matter - you get a free throw on him. Whether you take the hit or not, you are still in the same sitution: you have one frame (your last frame before neutral state–your reversal frame) where you can throw him but he can’t throw you. Taking the hit (“sac throwing”) gives you no advantage when the opponent is trying to tick throw.

I should clarify here what is meant by “block-stun”, 'cause there may be some confusion. Just like during hit-stun, during block-stun you can not do anything (no normals, no specials, no throws, no jumping, etc) and you can not be thrown. After true block-stun is finished, you go into “pseudo block-stun” or “fake block-stun” where your character is still in guard animation, but none of the block-stun rules apply anymore. You can do moves, you can jump, you can be thrown, and you can throw. It’s ambiguous because it looks the exact same as real block-stun, and there is no visual indication of when real block-stun ends and when fake block-stun begins.

To see an example of fake block-stun, have the opponent whiff Jabs while you hold back. This will cause you to go into guard animation. That is fake block-stun, because you can still do moves and be thrown during that animation.

So I think the reason why so many people believe in sac throwing is because you can visually see when hit-stun is over (your character immediately goes back to neutral state animation), but you can’t see when block-stun is over…you just have to know the timing.

Can you give any examples of that? The general rule for any move that doesn’t knock down is that the hit-stun is one frame shorter than the block-stun. That one frame difference is negligible, which is why timing for reversals is the exact same whether you get hit or block (assuming Eishi is right and you have a 3-frame window for reversals). Even if Eishi is wrong and you truly only have one frame, the timing is still practically the exact same.

Fei Long’s crazy kick (done with a Tiger Knee command).

Right. The reason I just focused on Chun is because I’ve never seen anyone actually do [whiff j.normal, throw] with any character except Chun.

I did a little bit of testing, and I found some interesting things…

As I stated earlier, there is no such thing as throw priority on the ground. If both characters in neutral state both do a throw on the same frame, the result will be random, regardless of what character, what throw, who’s overlapping who, etc. However, in the situation where a character has just landed after whiffing a j.normal, things work a little differently.

I didn’t have time to do extensive testing, but I found out that there is such thing as landing throw priority:

Chun vs. Ken. Chun whiffs head stomp, then lands right in front of Ken (not a cross-up). Both Chun and Ken are able to throw each other on the same frame (the first frame she’s on the ground), so there’s no advantage there. However, if both characters do the throw on the same frame in that situation, Chun always wins. If you don’t hit her out of the air, she gets a free throw.

Here’s where it starts to get more complicated…
If Ken whiffs a j.normal and both try to throw, Chun still wins every time.
If Chun whiffs a j.normal against Sim, Chun still wins every time.
If Sim whiffs a j.normal against Chun, Sim wins every time…:confused:

So there is definitely some kind of landing throw priority going on, but I didn’t have enough time to test it extensively.

-Nicholai!

541

Yeah. point blank range, not meaty.

542

I haven’t verified it personally, just theory based on what I read in jchensor’s CvS2 systems guide:

I have no idea how much Chen knows about SF2, though.

543

Umm…and not on CH? That sounds kinda suspect but who knows, some kid on Kalliera did cr. short x4->cr. rh as a combo with autofire :confused: