Super Street Fighter II Turbo, in the house

[N-Trade]

But I have never seen a “Reversal throw” take me out of a meaty RH with gief.

I say if you really want to test it use Gief cr.RH as the meaty and then see what you get.

But were u using the meaty cr.RH at full range. Assumin u were, this is prolly out of all chars throw range except maybe sim. Just curious.

[Superking]

Best thread in FGD. :tup:

[CigarBoB]

But were u using the meaty cr.RH at full range. Assumin u were, this is prolly out of all chars throw range except maybe sim. Just curious.

NO do it right up next to them when they are getting up. So they get up into the Cr.RH.

[System_1]

N-Trade :

A reversal is defined as the action of cancelling the last frames of the following animations with a special move :

Block Stun
Hit Stun
Ground Recovery
Air to Ground recovery

This definition is, as far as I know, valid for all the SF games (I don’t consider the SF EX series to be real SF games, since they weren’t made by Capcom) that were released after SF2CE, SF2T being the first SF game to implement reversals .

[Gen-An]

O. Boxer’s straight dash punch hits ducking characters where as N. Boxer’s doesn’t.

One reason why the Saturn version of ST cannot be used in a tournament is that O. Boxer’s Dash Straight whiffs crouching opponents, making him almost as useless as US CE Boxer!

[margalis]

Since a couple of people were asking about this, in the XMania vids you can see an example of N.Ken doing a HCF+K through a grounded opponent and coming out on the other side. It’s in xm4_2117_b311_ken_ken.wmv

Ken jumps in with fierce->hurricane, hits a low rh->hurricane kick, then whiffs the HCF+K to get on the other side, then does fierce->jab dragon. Nice little sequence.

Edit: Later in the third set of XMania vids in a Ken vs. Ryu match you see Ken knock Ryu down in the corner and do the step crescent kick (F, DF, D + K) to step over him as Ryu attacks the wrong direction, then end up back on the original side and throw Ryu. This is because the step crescent steps forward and then steps back again, whereas the HCF+kick just steps forward.

[ShinjiGohan]

A reversal is defined as the action of cancelling the last frames of the following animations with a special move :

Block Stun
Hit Stun
Ground Recovery
Air to Ground recovery

This definition is, as far as I know, valid for all the SF games (I don’t consider the SF EX series to be real SF games, since they weren’t made by Capcom) that were released after SF2CE, SF2T being the first SF game to implement reversals .

While I agree with your definition of reversals. No need to hate in SF EX series. Besides, IIRC you can’t do reversals from normal moves in EX anyway. And with it made by the same people who originally made SF2, its probably more SF than some of the later additions to the series.

[SuperFX]

Thanks for the vids, Cigarbob…I’ll prolly continue to seed for the next day or so. :bgrin:

edit…I totally forgot to thank Nick for the footage so…cheers bro :lame:

[NKI]

-In my experience as a player, I never encountered them

In my experience, I encounter them practically every single match (maybe even every single round). Not just myself, but other players (Japanese and American) do reversal throws quite regularly.

-It’s not logical at all. No sf game has reversal normal throws or reversal normal moves.

That is incorrect. All pre-Alpha 3 games except WW have reversal throws (because throws are 0-frame moves). This will work in CE, HF, SSF2, ST, A1, A2, and even the Marvel series (I’ve only tested it in XSF and MvC2). In Alpha 3, throws were no longer instant, so they can’t be done as reversals.

By definition a reversal can only be done with special moves.

Sorry, where did you get that definition from? That is not correct. You will only get a reversal message for Specials/Supers, but it can be done with normals and throws as well.

How am I supposed to beleive that they exist when I’m able to hit with a meaty attack a charater getting up with an “autofire throw” ?

Are you using a turbo controller? If so, that is not an accurate way to do it, because turbo controllers do not input once every frame. An emulator’s macros would be a much better way to go, but even that isn’t 100% accurate. For Kawaks, use this macro: 2,+

which basically means “input Strong punch, advance to next frame, input Strong punch again”.

Hold back or towards while using that macro, and you can get reversal throws pretty easily. If you don’t get the reversal throw, you can hear the reversal normal come out. There are also rare times where you just get hit clean, and that’s the emulator not inputting on every single frame.

I also know that there were (and are) lots of things that were believed to be true by most people that were later proven to be false. We don’t have all the technical data and informations that japanese players have, so people often imagine things and rules that doesn’t exist. That’s why I always verify the informations that I come accross.

That’s perfectly understandable, but given the evidence I presented you with, I don’t understand how you can still deny reversal throws.

I watched this file again several times, -frame by frame- and I only saw ryu starting to enter in guard animation, then the next frame he got hit by the slide. There wasn’t any move whiffing.

Of course you’re not going to see the move come out; he’s getting hit on the first frame of it. However, I said if you listen (turn up your volume) you can clearly hear his normal move come out, right before he gets hit, indicating that he did a reversal normal.

From what I’ve always understood it to be, a reversal in ST is where u go from any of these four states:

Block Stun
Hit Stun
Ground Recovery
Air to Ground recovery

immediately into an attack, with no neutral frames in between.

Mostly correct, but you can also do reversals out of dizzy stun.

To sum it up, a reversal is any time you go from a non-neutral state directly into a move, without ever going to neutral state. A non-neutral state is any state the opponent afflicts on you where you can’t do a move, so that means: block stun, hit stun, dizzy stun, while getting up (after being knocked down), and while recovering to the ground (after being hit out of the air).

So be it punch, throw, special or super they all count as a reversal. (But u only get the bonus message with specials & supers)

Right.

can someone prove (or disprove) the legend that T.Hawk’s cr.strong into Super really is irreversable.

That is false. It is irreversable only in very specific (and very few) situations. Every character has a reversal to beat tick throws. Ryu and Ken can DP, Chun can use upkicks or Spinning Bird Kick, Gief can SPD, etc. The only exception is Dic - his super is his only good reversal, so if he has no meter, you can get guaranteed ticks on him.

Never been able to recreate the scenario where it says reversal after, say a dp, but the character still gets thrown.

That’s the scenario you would need to prove it’s irreversable, but you will never get that scenario.

A reversal is defined as the action of cancelling the last frames of the following animations with a special move :

Block Stun
Hit Stun
Ground Recovery
Air to Ground recovery

This definition is, as far as I know, valid for all the SF games (I don’t consider the SF EX series to be real SF games, since they weren’t made by Capcom) that were released after SF2CE, SF2T being the first SF game to implement reversals .

A couple of things here…

First of all, there is no rule that says it must be a special move. Only specials/supers will give you the reversal message, but as I showed in those replays, you can also do reversal normals and reversal throws.

Secondly, you can also do reversals out of dizzy stun.

Thirdly, aside from WW, all the old school games (CE, HF, SSF2, and ST) have the same reversal system. SSF2 was the first game to give you the reversal message, but reversals exist in CE and HF as well. Otherwise [tick throw, repeat] would still be a game-winning strategy like in WW.

-Nicholai!

[System_1]

I also know that there were (and are) lots of things that were believed to be true by most people that were later proven to be false. We don’t have all the technical data and informations that japanese players have, so people often imagine things and rules that doesn’t exist. That’s why I always verify the informations that I come accross.

If only someone who’s been in Japan for a while could verify this and start his own ST thread!

[System_1]

In my experience, I encounter them practically every single match (maybe even every single round). Not just myself, but other players (Japanese and American) do reversal throws quite regularly.

Yes, getting up and throwing is very common, but you never cancel your ground recovery animation with a throw.

For Kawaks, use this macro: 2,+

This is exactly what I used

Here is a clear proof that reversal throws don’t exist :

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/4750/untitled29dy.jpg

And here are the Kawaks replays that I used : http://atlas.walagata.com/w/eishi/recinput.rar

rc0 : Ken does a reversal DP while getting up
rc1 : Ken tries to do a reversal mp
rc2 : Ken tries to do a reversal throw

Compare rc0 with the two others and watch them frame by frame. It is perfectly clear that in the first file, Ken cancels the animation, while in the two others he can’t do anything before the ground recovery animation is completely over.

[Duck_Strong]

Fair enough, but can we agree that the grounded player’s throw takes precedence over that of the attacker?

[ShinAkumax]

Stomping in skulls…for no reason! Lol I never noticed.

[System_1]

Fair enough, but can we agree that the grounded player’s throw takes precedence over that of the attacker?

Yes, and for a simple reason : the grounded player can mash it and the throw will come out as soon as he finishes his recovery. The attacker can’t do that, because he has to wait for the grounded player to completely finish his recovery before he can throw him.

[Duck_Strong]

I don’t think the standing player can even theoretically grab the grounded player first. The guy on the ground must get flagged as invincible to throws for a few frames.

[System_1]

Theorically the standing player can grab the grounded opponent as soon as the ground recovery animation is over. But this isn’t something anyone should try because you have something like 95 % chances of getting thrown. In order to throw the recovering player, you would have to do the throw motion at the exact moment where he completely recovers… whereas the grounded player just has to mash the throw motion.

[Duck_Strong]

I have never seen that happen in 14 years of playing SF2 so you’ll have to excuse my skepticism. But while we’re talking technical, what happens if both players(both within their respective throw ranges) throw at the exact same time? I assume they just both attack, but maybe someone randomly gets priority.

[System_1]

I have never seen that happen in 14 years of playing SF2 so you’ll have to excuse my skepticism.

That’s why I said that in this particular situation the grounded player has 95 % chances of throwing the other. Maybe I should’ve said 99 %, anyways what I wanted to say is that it’s theorically possible, but practically very unprobable.

But while we’re talking technical, what happens if both players(both within their respective throw ranges) throw at the exact same time?

I just tested that on Kawaks and it turned out that in this situation, one of the players randomly gets the priority.

[Gen-An]

why can ryu easily tiger knee hurricane kick foward like ken,akuma BUT he can not tiger knee hurricane kick backwards as easily? As a matter of fact I almost belive theres a stipulation to tiger kneeing backwards with ryu as sometimes its just like any other move. And other times it seems impossible to do with ryu for some reason.

Is there any legit reason why this is like this with ryu?

I’ve wondered why Ryu’s instant air-HK is so hard to get out myself.

[NKI]

Yes, getting up and throwing is very common, but you never cancel your ground recovery animation with a throw.

Did you even watch the replays that I uploaded? I canceled the ground recovery animation with a throw. I never went to neutral state before throwing. I did a reversal throw.

Please go watch those replays again, frame by frame.

What you uploaded doesn’t prove anything about whether or not they are actually possible. Your logic is “I can’t get reversal throws using macros, therefore they don’t exist”, and that is completely wrong because I can get reversal throws, I showed you this, and I didn’t even need to use macros, so it’s not that hard.

I will not continue on this topic any further, because the evidence that I’ve given you is more than enough. If you want to ignore it, that’s not my problem.

Theorically the standing player can grab the grounded opponent as soon as the ground recovery animation is over.

This is not true. After getting up, there is a considerable amount of “throw invincibility” where you are otherwise in neutral state (you can be hit, you can do moves, you can throw, etc), but you can not be thrown.

-Nicholai!