I understand the desire to turn off items. The Smashers want to make the game as fighting game-like as possible, so random factors such items are going to be turned off. After all, what fighting game has a subsystem that involves random factors? Can you imagine recovering your burst gauge at random? Or your moves doing random amounts of damage and building random amounts of meter? The less random a game is, the more skill-based it gets.
Paging Super Turbo to the Smash thread, paging Super Turbo to the Smash Thread, thank you.
When I play Smash Bros I keep all items on and turn them up to the highest level. I like the randomness and chaotic madness that ensues. But I don’t really play Smash with a competitive mindset. I play it because it’s awesome.
I wasn’t expecting SRK’ers needed educating like the majority of smash players do, or at least wasn’t expecting this dumb topic to come up until next year, but it seems unavoidable now.
Ironic, because both of you just definitively proved that you are the ones who missed the point and could not be more wrong.
Fact: The vast majority of all Smash tournaments ever held, were and still are itemless with a severely limited list of stages to use based on heavily biased, shaky claims.
Fact: After Brawl came out I talked to dozens of people on both smashboards and off line tournaments and the vast majority of them refused to entertain the idea of playing with items let alone provide any credible proof to back up their wild, scrubby claims that items/stages somehow ruin the balance and skill cieling.
Fact: Very few of the countless dozens I talked to online and in person were willing to reach any compromise with items, for most it was all or nothing.
So there you go, you two might be logical and rational enough to want only the items/stages proven to be ban worthy being banned, but you two are in the vast minority on that unfortunately.
You just lost all credibility from me and more than likely anyone else here who has ever played a non smash fighting game competitively, so don’t expect anyone to take your posts seriously from now on. To address your first point about randomness, as Saitsu pointed out ST has a ton of randomness from certain strategies to damage to dizzy damage and other intangible elements and these random elements haven’t stopped ST from having more depth than most if not all other fighting games and certainly more than Melee (though that’s not to discredit the depth and nuance of that game), in fact I could post an essay length analysis on how the random elements unintentionally add depth to the meta game.
Secondly, your premise on randomness somehow lowering the level of skill required in a fighting game is a subjective claim presented as fact, where is your proof to backup your claim? Smash players who are against use of items in tournaments have failed to produce any logical explanation let alone evidence that randomness makes the game less skill based so in the eyes of the FGC theyve embarrassed themselves. More to the point a wealth of evidence exists to prove the opposite of your faulty premise to be true with countless ST matches I’d be more than happy to explain to you as well as the winner of Brawl at Evo being a player who actually practiced the use of items for weeks before Evo. Some could make the argument that playing with items/stages takes even more skill than with none of them and that arguement has more evidence to support it than yours does as the Smash community laughably denied the opportunity to show SRK that they weren’t just talking out of their ass when they said items are broken.
When CVS2 came out and RC tech was discovered everyone had the knee jerk reaction to ban it and I think it was for like a week lol, but in typical FGC fashion it was tested in tournaments and now RC’s have contributed to it being one of the deepest fighting games ever made, Smash players should have been taking notes.
Done. Oh and not to go too off topic, but anyone who wants to play ST on GGPO let me know =P.
I’ve stated the facts and cited the immaturity of the smash community, so don’t expect me to expound on the topic anymore. Whether people choose to play with items/stages or not is up to them, a big part of the fun of any Smash game is it’s customizable settings which most other fighting games don’t have so everyone play in whatever way makes you the happiest I’m only stating that when you make bold definitive claims you better be ready to back them up or you risk looking like an idiot who’s word will mean nothing.
Equating random additions of meter to ‘this item might fall from the sky and secure you a win strictly because it fell on your side of the stage at a certain time’ is ridiculous. What’s with SRKers and wanting to compare rocks to mountains? Don’t even try and start with the let’s-just-ban-certain-items shit, either, because it is too subjective and will lead to too much bickering. So what do we do, have them sit in front of the item screen for a couple of minutes before each match and dictate what items get turned off? No, you shut shit off and ensure that you won’t randomly have a Hammer land on your side of the screen while you’re edge guarding.
Ya’ll can play all-items tournaments if you want, but don’t get butthurt when the majority of tournament players want to turn them off for tournament games. You get the odd sperg that’ll flat out refuse to have them on at a party, but that’s a minority case in my experience. Most Melee vets I play with will occasionally slap on some items, or Pokefloats, or one of the zany modes and enjoy it as the party game it was originally created to be.
Faust’s items in Guilty Gear appear randomly. He’s designed around this.
Playstation All-Stars also has a pretty good item system, but it’s not Nintendo so let’s all hate on it.
Once again, throwing out a random item with a move attached to a specific character isn’t comparable to random occurrences of potentially game changing items falling down from the sky down onto the stage in a random location. When you’re up against a Faust you know he has about 9 or 10 (I can’t remember and I can’t be arsed looking it up) items that he can potentially throw out, in comparison to the, what, 40+ items in Smash?
Also, Playstation All-Stars was hated on because it was a bad game, not because it wasn’t made by Nintendo. Pity because I liked the look of some of the cast inclusions and the potential of some of the people working on it.
Peach pulls up turnips, stitchface, bombs, and swords and she was Top 5 but that wasnt found out till like what, 2010? I don’t think that’s the problem.
I mean, the reason why I enjoy playing with items is BECAUSE of the randomness they introduce. They may not get in the way of skill, but I can understand the desire to reduce unpredictability. I still think it’s a fun game to watch/play either way, so I don’t see why the Smash community’s decision to ban items is such a big deal to some people.
I’d also like to know what exactly these BS claims were, but I guess it’s best to kill this line of discussion.
Since Marth’s ‘tip attack’ behavior is confirmed to return, here is a fun question: How would you feel about this behavior remaining on any alternate skins he might get? For example, Lyn or Ike (as Marth costumes) using tip-hits instead of something further down the blade as their animations in Fire Emblem 7, 9, and 10 would suggest.
you mean like how damage is random in SFII?
Wasn’t melee all items or nothing because there was a hidden item that couldn’t be turned off manually and it was stupidly powerul so they just went “Fuck it. No items”?
I wouldn’t wanna play a smash game where Ike lost his soul and be came a skin to sit overtop of the evil demon king Marth.
all marth users are satanists.
>_>
/Peach main
in all serioiusness though the costumes would have to be lord based characters, I think Lyn is too unique to be a skin for Marth, Same with Ike.
Characters like Eliwood, Erika, chrom, Lucina, those I can see being skins.
Um, it was actually proven that items have their own algorithm and appear at set time intervals depending on whether they were set to low, medium, or high… Every stage has unique item spawn points that only vary in order of use, so if you do your homework, you should know what spots on the stage are item spawn points.
All one needed to do was know what said timings were, distract/defeat/otherwise get rid of your opponent, and scope a spawn point for said items.
I guess that’s too much strategy for some folks so let’s just all pick Meta Knight/Olimar/Snake and plank, scrooge, and otherwise be a stalling bitch ass becuase Mew2King is in the Smash Backroom and wins all the time with Meta Knight, so that can’t possibly be a conflict of interest or anything when it comes to votes on banning or keeping him, so let’s keep letting this idiot be the face of the Smash community and then wonder why no one takes you seriously as a group…
As for Smogon, the fact that many members of Smogon are Smashboards regulars and vice-versa should be telling enough, but I’ll just say I don’t like artificial metagames and rulesets that limit player choice, and I damn sure don’t like pretentious assholes trying to tell me that my style of play isn’t the “standard” way of playing*(thank GOD)*, and the words over and centralizing need to be lit on fire and shoved up the ass of whomever uses them together in an attempt to argue for banning shit that wouldn’t be broke if you hadn’t banned the shit that could have checked it in the first fucking place…
Fuck the Backroom, fuck a Suspect Test, and fuck Smogon and Smashboards.
Well, I didn’t know that. Is what item appears totally random, because I could still see people being troubled over that.
Brawl sucks as a competitive game anyway. Still fun, though, but I don’t really care what the competitive community does with that game.
As for Melee, I don’t really mind that items and off and stages are limited, it’s still fun to play/watch.
Something that was corrected in later versions and beyond.
Nope, damage is still random in Super Turbo. Only version of SFII I know of that doesn’t have random damage is HDR and it was rejected by the community.
SRK still can’t fathom people might have different approaches to competitive gaming after all these years
To throw in my 2 cents, I have no issues with how the majority of the smash community (smashboards and ect.) choose to play this game. The issue I have that put a bad taste in my mouth over things was how the community shunned the idea of their being an item and non item community. The way how people were talking about how the guy who won Brawl at Evo (don’t remember his name) and pretty much belittled his win made me shake my head in disgust a bit.