That’s why I put Wario above Sonic. Wario man is a threat literally everywhere.
Ok so I did some reading and it’s kinda like how Nintendo used to own Banjo or Conker. They own the dev, the dev owns the IP. If the dev buys out the IP goes with them.
If someone knows how to use Super Sonic well, you are dying once if not twice no questions asked. Meanwhile Mario’s is a big joke. If Mario is my opponent I don’t even care about getting the smashball.
You didn’t earn that, you didn’t tell your self “well I better get him off the ledge in case that item I like randomly generates” you got him off the ledge because that’s the goal of the game.
I want some hard numbers and data on this whole watching the spawn thing. You say it’s there but when I’ve been playing with items and it all seems totally random.
It’s not quite like Camelot and Retro, those two don’t make original IP, they just make existing ones. They’re more like old school Rare, the IP is gone if they buy out. Which to me makes Golden Stuff more likely.
Xenoblade is not a part of xenosaga.
And did you know that Banjo-Kazooie is not a part of Donkey Kong?
First: the bolded part. As I said, I know these are terribly imbalanced and I hope they fix that in Smash 4. However, none of them are so good that they make a character broken. No, not even Sonic. Why? Because Sonic alone is not that great. He has great ways of racking up damage, but zero kill potential. He’s on par with Melee Yoshi in that regard (though even Yoshi has more kill potential in Brawl). He’s one of the better characters at getting items, but even the Smash Ball is elusive due to the cracking requirement. The existence of the Smash Ball makes him a force to be reckoned with entirely due to that Final Smash. It keeps their opponent wondering if doing aggressive/risky plays is worth it when a Smash Ball spawns, as Sonic getting it is that worrisome. It’s also why you’ll see people Spear Pillar as a counterpick against Sonic. Even if he gets it, he STILL can’t kill. I agree, poor Mario didn’t deserve such a shitty Final Smash, but really, overall, the only truly BAD one is ZSS’s, because she can’t even reliably do a denial of use on her opponent due to the transformation.
Secondly, I always laugh at the idea of “it’s random, so it’s not earned”. That’s way too short sighted. You’re looking at the very small picture. What led to that point is much more important than what spawned in someone’s favor at that immediate moment. The 10-14 seconds prior to that spawn is largely what determines the outcome of an item spawn. That time is entirely controlled by the players. The fact that an item spawns should only be altering your decisions a bit come spawn-time. It should be intended to make you rethink a risky play knowing that the consequences could be severely dire. The level of reward is the only thing is random, which just makes your risk that much more volatile. Now, instead of a game of kekekekekekeke like Melee or herpaderpaplanking of Brawl, the majority of the game will revolve around stage control and adaptability. This, I can only see as a good thing.
As for hard numbers, sadly, the Smash subforum here at SRK was purged not that long ago, so all the studies that gave the hard numbers is gone. I do know that the time spent proved both that distribution is even between evenly-matched players, tends to spawn NEAR a player rather than far away from them, spawns every 10-14 seconds on Low, and did have a rubberbanding feel to it when stock/score ratios started to vary significantly (I believe it was noticeable when there was a 3 stock variation?).
Lastly, it’s been teased already that we’re gonna see something from Xenoblade in Smash (Sakurai showing pictures of a real life model of the Monado), while Golden Sun is a dead series. At the time of Brawl, they were working on the DS one (ya know, the one that tanked the series). We MIGHT see the return of the Isaac Assist Trophy, but I wouldn’t hold my breath on that, even.
@cyntalan There are clearly some people here like smashbros29 who feel items and non traditional stages are a crutch in lieu of actual “skill” and I just don’t want them or anyone whining about losing due to items/stage hazards despite being the more “skilled” player. Back when we had the SRK Brawl group we could all set up matches with each other and have tournaments and enjoy being competitive and having fun at the same time and I’m hoping we can do the same with Smash 4…except this time hopefully you guys won’t get bored of Smash 4 and stop playing it completely within a year like you did with Brawl.
I won’t make the mistake of reaching out to the scrubby, bitchass smashboards community this time fuck them.
Yeah, I know. I was just wondering where you got the idea people would be banned over this. Did Wiz or someone equally powerful come out and say as much and I missed it?
As for the interest drop in Brawl, I’m pretty sure a great deal of of is because Nintendo’s shitty netcode and service didn’t allow for people to actually play the game online with people.
I just assumed (perhaps wrongfully) that we would have a social code of respecting each other and holding ourselves to a higher standard than smashboards of being more inclusive and open minded while also not tolerating those who want us to do things a certain way. I really like the 2 seperate leagues idea and maybe a hybrid league, maybe we can even have an SRK Smash 4 season long thing going like WCS does with Star Craft 2. Obviously no prizes beyond bragging rights though =P.
Yeah Brawl netcode was ass and the friendcode shit didn’t make it any easier, I stopped playing Brawl around 2010 and literally just once in 2011 I logged on with a hunger to play and saw NO ONE on =/.
Mario’s is just plain bad, even if you get hit you take like 20 damage and you can DI out of it.
Some of the stages are just bullshit, playing on Pictochat and suddenly that fucking fence comes and kills you? I’m glad you brought up Spear Pillar too, not only is its layout complete bullshit with the basement floor keeping certain characters from killing until very high % you don’t even know which of the completely game altering effects will show up when you pick the stage. It’s not fair, there’s no warning it’s just bullshit. But I guess we’ll get to stages.
I want to know which settings you’re referring to in terms of items. If you’re defending everything on high, this isn’t even a discussion.
Also, that’s good you (supposedly) know when and where but what about the what? That’s huge, why should anything be left to chance in a skill based game?
On Golden Sun vs Xenoblade: I never played Xenoblade, never saw Sakurai post that picture but seriously there’s enough anime sword guys and if we’re gonna get one I’d rather get the one who has gravity powers, not to mention I think the assist trophies that are lead characters are kind of a shoe in.
Items are a tool you can use, I think there’s plenty of skill in using some of the items themselves, the issue is where they drop, when they drop and what drops. Not knowing means it’s a crapshoot.
The fact that you played Brawl online isn’t helping the case that you care about playing the game in a serious context. That game had the worst net play of any fighting game this generation by a mile.
Also, quit trying to be such a tough guy I’m challenging which settings to have on in a video game not what to do in the middle east. Christ.
I think the more meaningful portion of the items-for-competition debate is that having no items provides a state of play that’s more clearly player vs player, while the addition of items introduces a larger player vs game element into the mix. Fans of the former don’t always find the latter desirable.
It’s not really about randomness; there’s random elements in more traditional fighting games (Faust, Platinum, Peacock, etc.) that go by without much complaint. The big difference is that there’s a greater deal of player agency with using those random items as opposed to random item spawns. People are okay with adaptability, but many would rather spend more time adapting to the player than adapting to the game.
It’s meh, not bad. At least he can grab it, burn it, and deny his opponent the chance to use it. ZSS can’t even do that due to the post-FS transformation into a severely worse character.
Bzzt wrong! Pictochat is very predictable in its transformations. Learn it. Nothing in that stage “comes out of nowhere”. Spear Pillar’s basement does force you to be a side killer, which means some characters are better than others on that stage, yes. Is that really a shock that some characters like/dislike certain stages more than others? Also, nothing is unpredictable in that stage either. You can tell from the getgo what version you’re getting depending on a) the color of the aura that’s around and b) the Pokemon that pops out the first time. This doesn’t change throughout the round. The beam of doom at the basement is a means to force people to come out of hiding, and hiding down there does mean you get less of the items that spawn (higher chance of spawning above). Once again, stage control. I do agree that the topsy-turvy moments that occur are frustrating, but some people got the mind to do shit backwards, some don’t. Sucks to be the latter. A friend of mine is one of the former and loves it when Spear Pillar shows up (though screams in annoyance when Cresselia’s the one on stage).
High is terrible. Even medium is terrible. Set it to low. You get 10-14 second spawns. It’s just enough to get a decent roll in of item drops while not flooding you with them. However, I think everything should be on, at least for a good long while, testing and proving there is no other solution than removing something. Note that it doesn’t have to be just a strong strategy, but a radically game altering and potentially game breaking one. It’s not good to kneejerk ban shit.
I believe the term you’re looking for is adaptability, an amazing skill to have in a competitive game. You know what’s possibly going to spawn. You can take risks in anticipating it to be something shitty, or something great, or something dangerous, and adapt to the situation once it presents itself. Nothing in the game is absolutely “out from nowhere” with the exception of the rewards for WarioWare’s minigames. That is the one point I will completely concede on, and a solid reason to at least CONSIDER not using the stage in competitive play.
I agree there are plenty of swordsmen that we don’t need another. Which is why if they were to represent Xenoblade, there’s at least 3 characters I’d rather see before Shulk (Melia would be so fucking awesome in Smash…), but Smash is a fanservice game first, a game-promoting game second. Xenoblade’s about to get a sequel that’s releasing either before or around the same time as Smash 4. Golden Sun is a dead series. Don’t be surprised to have your hopes shattered. I’d fear for Isaac’s return as an assist trophy even. Dark Dawn tanked that hard.
Speaking of Assist trophies, now that Little Mac is no longer one, we should have a Punch-Out boxer to take his place.
Now the question remains: Bald Bull, King Hippo, or Glass Joe(dud assist trophy a la Goldeen)
Random does not equal bad. Legit fighters have random elements. Fausts items in GG are completely random. His super even has a random element to it that turn the damage on him. Zappas Ghosts in GG are also completely random. Damagte and input window frames in SFII have random elements to them (Damage done, and input window size). Saying they are random and thus bad =/= a good argument.
People don’t get pissy about randomness with characters because they don’t have a setting that allows you to turn them off, nor are they as wildly OP as items are
I am far too lazy to fix this up, just hit show.
[quote=“Cyntalan, post:3371, topic:161755”]
It’s bad. It’s not the worst but it’s bad.
But slowing down time, speeding up time, that fucking cave it’s all too strong to the point where it’s more like playing an obstacle course game you just so happened to be able to fight in.
I’m also of the opinion all walk offs and stages with permanent walls and ceilings should be out. There’s way way way too many ways to break the game with those.
Now hang on a second, does everyone that uses items think the same way? Another reason I think no items is easy is because there is no variables. You just tell people “items off”. It’s simple.
The skill in risk vs reward is very dulled when the reward is random. Especially when it can range from useless (smoke bomb) to game winning (good assist trophy or pokeball)
Bad sales don’t equal smash characters, did Star Fox even have a good game beyond 64? I guess the remake of 64.
In all versions of SF2 you can get dizzied by 2 hits, hell sometimes you get dizzied by 1 hit. In ST sometimes a 7 hit combo that does 80% won’t dizzy you. And yet items are more OP :looney:
I’m not a SF guy, so I’m not quite sure what is meant here. Like, so you’ll have maybe cL kicks that lead into combos that lead into another dizzy and more damage because scaling wasn’t around? That sounds pretty stupid.
Still not as stupid as something that goes straight through your defense and insta-kills you. Sometimes multiple times /opinion
Or the fan
The fan’s not that bad… unless you’re Jigglypuff, anyway. We disproved the “fans are OP” shit back when Brawl came out. You can DI out of it faster than Mario’s Final Smash…
A dizzy in SFII usually is an insta kill as most of the cast can TOD you off an optimal set up (AKA a Dizzy). The dizzy system is random, you can get dizzied of a 5 hit combo, a sweep, or even a jab (Or not a get a dizzy off stuff that would dizzy 9 times out of 10 others), add on top of that random damage that can have you taking a lot more damage then normal, if you get dizzied you’re probably giving up the round no matter how much life you had. Despite all the randomness in SFII, most versions are still incredibly viable for competitive play so randomness being a detriment to competitive play is a weak argument.
Yeah I know, but it’s still fun to toss it around as an ‘end of the universe OP as shit’ thing.
GODS NO NOT THE FAAAAAAAAAAN! RUN!