what matchups is denjin considered to be a better option?
That’s a tough Question since it really depends on your playstyle.
Denjin vs. Small Characters or ones with low stamina can always be good. Then on the other hand, Shino vs. their low stamina always wins. Then you also have the Option Select Element.
One thing I’ve started to re-evaluate is how often I land EX Palm vs. the opponent. For example if you are fighting cammy and you block her srk kick, it’s a free EX Palm > Denjin. Using it as a safe jump ~ Denjin is very good stuff too. Nevillebamshew talked about a lot of it, but I think a bunch of people missed it b/c they didn’t understand the mechanics of it.
It also depends on how often you land untech knockdowns against a certain opponent type. You can meaty it and force them to eat it, or do something risky to get out and take further damage.
If you land j. mp a lot it’s a good tool as well.
My general rule is, if they have a move that can go through a fireball then I’m using Shin-Sho. I wish you could have hado and denjin on the screen at the same time with Gouken then you could bait the shit that way.
I still hate Denjin. I never liked it and I never thought it was worth picking against anyone. It’s preference, sure, but Denjin is just so bad. Like I was saying before Super came out the only thing it really has over Shin Shoryu is meter saving which is not even a problem for Gouken since he builds meter fast anyways. Denjin would be perfectly fine to use in a match if instead of selecting Ultras you had both at the same time. I always thought it was unusual that Capcom went out of their way to make sure the Ultras had different inputs and then make then two separate choices (A fireball ultra using kicks. What the hell sense does that make?). As it is there is no real reason to pick Denjin over Shin Sho unless you just like Denjin that much.
I agree with mostly everything you say since I think Shin-Sho is a bigger threat than Denjin. But, believe it or not, some Gouken’s don’t land back throw too often esp. vs. the shoto characters. I think you develop a better playstyle with using the Denjin though, some times Shin Sho is a crutch, you can get your ass beat the entire match and then land a back throw > win. That’s one of Gouken’s good points though, you gotta love his damage out put.
I don’t think Denjin is a bad Ultra b/c of the various applications it has, esp. if you need to win using Chip Damage. And there are plenty of ways to land it as a meaty on their wake up or after a reset. On the other hand, they left a lot to be desired when you start comparing it to a lot of the new Ultra’s primarily Abel’s.
I think the Damage should have been the same regardless the charge, and the stun amount should have been dependent upon how long you held it. Also, the option to choose as an Anti Air like Blanka or Sakura would have been nuts. That fucking Abel has a broken as U2, I don’t care what any one says about it. He can hold it, cancel it, you can’t grab him out of it, it absorbs one hit, and it’s FAST as hell. There are ways to escape it, but damn he can activate it and cancel it so you can’t punish him… WTF.
Aside from that, the speed of the Denjin is a little disappointing, I was hoping it would be as fast as Ryu’s hp Super FB.
Never the less… I basically sum them up as this.
Denjin = More Set Ups and Shin-Sho = More Damage.
I think I want to track about 25 Fights to with Shin Sho to see how much I land and it, vs. 25 fights with the Denjin. And also take in consideration how many times I won using both.
That way I can tell which one is most useful for my play style.
The only setup that Denjin has that Shin Sho doesn’t is regular palm into ultra in the corner, a basically useless combo. EX palm into ultra. Yep, Shin Sho can do that too. It’s tons easier to FADC it and it’s not character specific that way, but you can still do it. AA fireball to ultra. Again, Shin Sho can do that as well. Not as easy as Denjin, but it’s possible and it gives you tons more damage. Tatsu FADC into ultra. You bet your sweet ass Shin Sho can do it. Back throw is obvious, and hardly worth mentioning, seeing as it’ll almost never happen and when it does it’s a fluke. Corner combos? Please, Shin Sho has this on lock down.
As I said in my first post the only thing Denjin is good for is saving meter. It’s a non-issue really, because Gouken builds meter like fat kids eat cake. If you’re using Shin Sho as a crutch you’re playing wrong, or at least if you’re not using Shin Sho the same way a Ryu would use DP FADC U1 you’re playing wrong. Sure it can win you the match if you use it, but if you fall back on it to win every round there’s a problem.
Keep in mind you can also meaty Denjin to tack on the stun and then rush them down.
Keep in mind they can block the Denjin and block your rush down even more so than ever now that Gouken’s DF dive doesn’t hit overhead anymore. Gouken’s rush down is really weak and his mix up is lacking. All it takes is around 5 seconds of not taking a hit for the stun to reset and that Denjin was wasted on block stun, which isn’t even great to begin with.
I’m still using Denjin all the time. Thing is that it’s not because of the variety of setups, etc., but it is in order to change my playstyle to be more offensive, after deciding myself that I’ll land full Denjin as much as I can, which in a player match is only possible after I stun the opponent. Odd reason, isn’t it? :shy:
I hear you, but the point of the blocked Denjin is that it tacks on the stun value so even if you trade hits then it’s a possible stun. The stun also doesn’t drop as long as you are hitting them and/or they are blocking something and there are a lot of characters you can safe jump away and keep them on the defensive.
I don’t think his mix up is weak, but I do think his rush down can be a bit challenging playing at higher levels since all of his moves are unsafe unless they are spaced correctly. Gouken has tons of mix up and reset shit if you can get him going, but the biggest thing is putting him in a position to take advantage of those things. SRK for the other shoto’s is the answer for every damn thing esp. when they have 2 EX Bars it’s a free attack basically.
I pick Denjin vs. Juri b/c of the amount of stamina she has and a lot of her moves give you a cr. roundhouse or cr. fp. I don’t seem to land shin sho on her often, her EX Air Dive Kick is highly punishable though.
I think if you are playing to win Shin-Sho is the way to go for obvious reasons, but the Denjin does have it’s pro’s. I’ve yet to count how many times I land Shin Sho in 25 matches vs. how many times I land Denjin in 25 matches. I do think the damage / stun for Denjin should have been the same regardless how long you charged it since it’s blockable, and if he was Abel he could cancel it too. 
I do think you have more opportunities to land a Denjin vs. Shin Sho and it doesn’t give the opponent an out right punish if it’s blocked. If you block a Shin Sho then it’s lights out for Gouken, this is one major plus over the 2 Ultra’s. The risk vs. the rate that you actually land the move.
If I had one match to win, I’m using Shin Sho for sure, but I can see why some people use the Denjin in certain scenarios.
Here’s a vid I made_^)
It’s similar to Raunwynn’s video. I should have thanked everyone on this forum for contributing their thoughts and ideas instead of giving all the credit to Raunwynn lol.
[media=youtube]-aS9NtCCbPQ[/media]
ok im noob with this thread stuff but i found a combo that is pretty easy to land if you know Gouken basic combos. hp > ex dash punch > ex fire ball > denjin. this is all done in the corner of course. the damage i recorded is 472
ok im noob with this thread stuff but i found a combo that is pretty easy to land if you know Gouken basic combos. hp > ex dash punch > ex fire ball > denjin. this is all done in the corner of course. the damage i recorded is 472
Someone will tell you to go read the pages before posting but I think most of us are aware of the combo. I think one combo that may not have been mentioned is lp palm in the corner to denjin. I know, you’re all going uh, what? Here’s the catch. Since lp palm comes out fastest you can “bounce” your opponent higher than you would with a fierce or a medium palm to a Denjin in the corner. The reason for bouncing them higher is so you can charge an extra hit out of the ultra. HOWEVER, landing a weak palm while you’re already doing an ex palm in the corner makes it very difficult so the best way to do it is land the weak palm a notch or two from the corner. I’ve come to learn that spacing with this ultra is of the utmost importance if you want decent damage. One more thing, you don’t necessarily have to use the weak palm but its the easiest to do. The stun alone was 910 from a jumping fierce, close fierce, ex palm, early palm to ultra. I forget the damage but it’s probably the best and most difficult combo I can think of right now. I’m sure it doesn’t work on the characters that don’t “bounce” high like Gen for example.
Counter hit St. HP > Cr. Roundhouse > Meaty Denjin (blocked) . 225 Damage 650 Stun
Now i have to come up with a few counter hit set ups.
I don’t think Denjin is really worse than Shin Sho. It’s a lot easier to land and gives you more options IMO.
Shin Sho is NOT a good anti-air and, despite being an uppercut (the angle it starts at is just weird to me), it has a pretty slow start up for a move you need to be in close to use. I feel like I land Denjin more often AND it does some good things for you even if they block it, you can’t say the same for Shin Sho. If they block U1 you get hurt, if they block U2 they get hurt and get a lot of stun damage done to them. I would like to know how much stun you get off a Denjin used without a full meter, like half full revenge gauge and uncharged Denjin???
I’ve gotten some nice wins with Denjin and it can be used defensively as well. If they try to poke on wake up you can make them eat it or at least block it. I do not like Shin Sho on wake up at all.
My last thing – I know this is not good proof or truly meaningful in any real way but, the authors of the strategy guide by Prima claims that Denjin is the best option. I think it has to do with the very high stun and the fact that it’s a pretty safe ultra to use in almost every situation. You can knock people out of the air with it from the right distance, charge it and time it to hit someone jumping in OR out, land it on the end of BnB combos and do good things with it meaty even on block.
I don’t think it’s any better or worse than Shin Sho personally but that’s my opinion of course…
I’ve always had mixed results in regards to Prima startegy guides. Denjin continues to be a fun challenge but in order to use it to its utmost potential you’ve really got to take some FADC risks or palm juggle know how. I’m referring to knowing that you don’t use palm to Denjin on particular characters because they don’t bounce, it’s knowing that Vega bounces high so use lp palm to knock them into the air higher for an extra hit with Denjin etc. I know some people like to hit with blocked Denjin but the wakeup invincibility potential from your opponent is too risky. Denjin is very character specific and refreshing. I’ve wanted to make a compilation of opportunities for Denjin but maybe I’ll talk it over with people here before I make it.
Now, no decent player throws out ultras unless they’re desperate but there are things that your opponent does not know about their own attacks until they get hit by it. I think one of the biggest examples that stands out in my head is Dudley’s Rolling Thunder. It has no armour breaking properties unless you just rose from a crouch, goes through fireballs and does a helluva lot of damage. However, what can Gouken do? Point blank, jump backwards, full or nearly full Denjin to Dudley’s face as he whiffs (barely) with his uppercut. I’ll look into other lesser punishable options and see if I can’t glean any practicality out of it.
Oh, and yeah, Shin Shoryuken is awkward as anti-air but maybe I just need to train with it some more.
I still think blocked Denjin is meh, especially the techable knockdown setups.
To go ever-so-slightly into non-gameplay talk, the problem with Denjin isn’t that it sucks, it’s that Shinsho is really good. It’s easy to combo into and does massive damage. Most of the ultras have a tradeoff of good damage or comboability (see Ryu, Dudley, Chun, etc.), but Shinsho has both traits. Denjin’s stun/damage tradeoff isn’t enough of a difference-maker, not because the stun bonus isn’t awesome, but because Gouken can’t fully take advantage of it like, say, Akuma or Seth or anyone else with a really effective wakeup mixup game. Or even anyone with good footsies
Kongo counter it.
i agree with this.
there are a few things that denjin can do that shinsho cant, but nothing of significant value.
gouken doesnt have enough pressure to back up a dizzy mechanic ultra.
i think denjin is a lot better off line though.
those extra charged hits mean a lot and they are too risky online.
Kongo works but jumping straight up, walking closer to Dudley, neutral jump in combo is even better.