Just did some labbing with Hwo, his b.mk isn’t an overhead, your data has it listed as being a mid attack. It is still beast for using after a CADC though.
The tech window isn’t really 12f in AE. When you get thrown, the game just looks back into your inputs to look for a throw/tech input (obviously it also looks at your inputs after the throw initiates as well). From the latest possible tech frame to the earliest the window is 12f, but this is misleading because throws startup in 3f, and have a 7f teching window (this applies to crouch teching). What this implies is you can actually input a tech throw before the opponent tries to throw you. eg. If you dash or you are in block-stun, you can input a tech right before you enter neutral state and if the opponent tries to throw you, you will tech it, even if no animation would have occured if the opponent didn’t throw.
How do throws it work in SFxT? Can you for example perform a move that is +4 on block and then throw immediately, or is there a number of frames after hit/blockstun and/or wakeup where the opponent is throw-invincible?
DP
A string can be either a cancel or mixture of a cancel and link. Some strings act like “chains” where you literally cancel the moves into each other, where as others cancel some part of the recovery of the previous move only. That is why you can combo strings. A move that is “+4” on hit, is so if you let it recover. If you use the follow up move, that acts like a cancel, you skip the rest of the active frames and recovery, so a move that has 6F start up combos very, very easily.
That is the same for special moves. Some special move have like 18F start up, but you can combo them from a c.MK and the like.
You can calculate the hit/block stun for the non-dlc characters. First off you need the “cancel advantage”.
To calculate the “cancel advantage”, you use this formula:
Active Frames -1 + Recovery
*
c.LK:3 -1 + 11 = 13F
c.MK: 3 -1 + 18 = 20F
*
Now you take “cancel advantage” and add/subtract the “frame advantage” to get the “hit/block stun”.
*
c.LK: 13F +3/-1 = 16F / 12F of hit/block stun
c.MK: 20F +0/-4 = 20F / 16F of hit/block stun*
For normal special moves, you subtract now the “start up” of the special move from the hit/block stun. (e.g. Reverse Arm Slam Combo with a start up of 16F [I just recorded it, the 17F are wrong in the guide]).
on hit*
c.LK: 16F hit stun - 16F start up = 0
c.MK: 20F hit stun - 16F start up = 4
*
on block*
c.LK:12F block stun - 16F start up =-4
c.MK:16F block stun - 16F start up = 0
*
As long as it’s >=0, it is a combo or true block string. As you can see, c.LK xx Reverse Slam combo is not a “true block string” and has a gap of 4F.
However, since Tomahawk is a grab, there is another rule that applies:
SFxT seems to have a 4F unthrowable window after hit/block stun and wakeup.
So the formula is now:
“hit/block stun” +4 - "start up"
On Hit*
c.LK: 16F hit stun +4 - 18F start up = 2
c.MK: 20F hit stun +4 - 18F start up = 6*
On Block*
c.LK: 12F block stun +4 -18F start up = -2
c.MK: 16F block stun +4 -16F start up = 4
*
Remember, since this is a throw you want to have a negative number, since throws can’t be comboed, meaning the opponent has recovered and can be thrown.
As you can see, only c.LK on block has a negative number, making it a 2F gap tick throw.
Hope I have that right and you understand everything, as I have never thought about it intensively.
Should be noted that Steve can cancel any ducking into peekaboo stance.
Also this has been bothering me ever since the day frame data came out. Why is it that Ogre’s cr. short states a 5 frame startup but for his Snake Blade target combo starting hit, d+lk which is basically crouching short 4 frames?
Because the guide has it so. I’m not sure which value is correct, but will check it out. I want a different design for string combos anyway. Listening the c.LK again is redundant, so I delete those rows. I’ll do that when I see it during my check ups, for characters where I have not done it yet.
On a side note, instead of being “bothered” by it for so long, you could have just dropped a line and I’d have been made aware of the error and would have checked it out a month ago. Thanks for letting me know tho.
In that case, another thing that doesn’t add up is Steve’s British Edge target combo. It says on hit +5 but Steve can link a cr. mp which
says 7 frame start-up. He could do it in vanilla and he can still do it now in version 2013 seen here for proof.
Check this out from Brady Guide.
Brady Guide says it’s +5 on hit on the frame data table, and this is the description of the move:
I guess it’s actually +9 on hit? Hopefully they’re right on one of them.
Wanted to give you props for all the time you’re putting into this. A few things:
-Gilley made a typo when transcribing Bison’s close mp recovery. In Vanilla it was listed as 13f instead of 3f. However, close mp now cancels into hk scissors now, which has 21f startup, which AFAIK, wasn’t possible in vanilla. So something about the hitstun changed, and that the implies that the recovery is probably 14f or more. It’s probably 15f if they kept the move’s duration the same as Vanilla’s.
-How did you test HP crusher on block? It looks right for a single hit, but I think the original block advantage assumed if both hits were blocked, just like it does in the AE framedata.
I stood in front of the dummy and did a HP Crusher x). I’ll recheck it if it seems fishy to you. I could always made an error somewhere.
I’ll check cl.MP’s recovery as well (assuming the active frames are correct).
Yes u can throw immediately and it’s also apply-able with command throws. That’s why King can cancel his cr.LK on block into a command grab.
21 Total frames - 5F start up -3F Active frames (-1) = 14F recovery
Previously, it had 13F according to the guide, so it has 1F more recovery. That might be enough to make it comboable into HK SK.
If you’re doing HP Crusher from close, it will only hit once it seems. I’m not sure which from the both entries I should use now… might include both.
Is this window cancelled if the opponent tries to perform a throwable move? eg. if they wakeup pressing cr.lp?
No clue. x) Not even sure if it’s 4F universally. I only know it’s there after wake up. It might be also move (or situation) specific. I tested this very briefly a few pages back. Might be worth looking further into… @STREET11We need you!
Poison
c.HP: On Block -13 (-6 according to 1.0.8)
EX Whip of Love: Start Up 13F (14)
HK Kissed by a Goddess: On Block -42 (-36)
EX Kissed by a Goddess: Start Up 5F (6)
EX Aeolus Edge: Start Up 8F (9)
Super Art: Start Up 9F (10)
Hey zUkUu thanks for explaining that, man. Didn’t have time to reply yesterday so I just threw you a like but that really helped me out a bunch. Going to hit the lab this afternoon and try some stuff out, gotta keep those formulas handy though since I’ll forget 
Having some players in my area question the math behind Hwoarang’s mp~mp CADC properties on block. They claim Hwo’s dash is 17f and if mp~mp is 16f blockstun, it’s not possible to be zero on block. Care to venture how the math on that is achieved and if it is in fact safe or neutral on block?
I think I explained this in the general discussion thread earlier. MP>MP is -6 on block after a dash forward, and MK>MK>HK is -1.
To elaborate on zUkUu’s write-up about throws:
There is a 3f unthrowable window, and the opponent is throwable at the 4th frame after leaving hitstun or blockstun. You do not become vulnerable to throws by performing a throwable move after hitstun is over, even if you’re in the throw range.
Borrowing and modifying zUkUu’s formula:
“hit/block stun” +3 - "start up"
On Hit
c.LK: 16F hit stun +3 - 18F start up = 1
c.MK: 20F hit stun +3 - 18F start up = 5
On Block
c.LK: 12F block stun +3 -18F start up = -3
c.MK: 16F block stun +3 -16F start up = 3
Now, there are factors that make things more complicated such as cancelling into a throw at later active frames, but ideally you’ll want to have -1 or 0 at the end. Having -1 at the end means you’ll be able to throw opponents at the 1st active frame of the throw, and having 0 at the end means you’ll be able to throw them at the 2nd active frame of the move.
Today’s check ups!
Rolento
cl.LP: +9/0
s.LP: +6/+2
EX Patriot Circle: Start Up 18F (19)
Super Art: Start Up 13F (14)
Cross Art: Start Up 7 (67)
Rufus
Falcon Kick: On Hit +10 (+9)
Falcon Kick: On Block +2 (-4)
Fragrance Palm: On Block -8 (-7)
EX Galactic Tornado: Start Up 13F (14)
EX Messiah Kick: Start Up 12F (13)
EX Messiah Kick: On Hit -10 (-9)