Street Fighter V needs less characters and more variety

[N0_d3N1AL]

Please allow me to justify the title of this discussion. As you know, there are 39 characters in SSFIV AE. Capcom recently held a character poll (results of which can be seen here: http://www.capcom-unity.com/combofiend/blog/2013/04/02/street-fighter-character-poll-results), and the reason for this was clearly to gain the community’s aggregate reception to the characters in general for all of Street Fighter if they wanted to add new characters as DLC for the upcoming update; or gathering ideas about who should be included in future instalments of the franchise. With 67 characters on there, it’s quite clear than not everyone can be included due to time, budget and balancing constraints. Therefore, by natural selection, the most popular characters will feature in more games (e.g. Ryu is in pretty much every Capcom fighting game).

My proposition is that if the game has fewer characters, not only are tier lists diminished in their utility, but also fewer match-ups and less balancing is required to make the game fair and bug-free. It also makes categorisation easier, and for those struggling to find a character - it’s usually because there are too many, rather than too few - to choose from. I think there are characters in SSF4 AE which are either useless or too similar to other characters.

[CosmicSpiral]

Adon has a completely different playstyle than Cammy and he existed before she did. facepalm

[N0_d3N1AL]

Adon has a completely different playstyle than Cammy and he existed before she did. facepalm

True, he was in original Street Fighter. But I’m not seeing why anyone would use him over Cammy other than for better normals. His Jaguar Kick is his unique move, which is easy to counter because it’s fairly slow.

[dx2]

This has to be trolling.

[CosmicSpiral]

Adon has a completely different playstyle than Cammy and he existed before she did. facepalm

True, he was in original Street Fighter. But I’m not seeing why anyone would use him over Cammy other than for better normals. His Jaguar Kick is his unique move, which is easy to counter because it’s fairly slow.

Because once again, he plays in a completely different manner and not everyone wants to play Cammy. There are different types of rushdown characters you know.

[Norieaga]

I would remove Rufus and Fuerte. Too ugly and stupid characters that make the franchise less “serious” than it used to be.

[N0_d3N1AL]

I would also add Vega (Claw) to that list, because he’s basically a less serious Bison (Dictator).

[Tryken]

I’m going to assume this is a joke.

But in case it isn’t:

Ken: His differences are almost immediately apparent. Plenty of good players enjoy Ken, unless you’re going to tell me BananaKen is a scrub.

T.Hawk - Not that I like T.Hawk, but he does play arguably different than Zangief.

Gen - Xian… arguably one of the best 5 players in the world, uses Gen. Do I need to justify this to you?

Sakura - Female Ryu? Really? Please. Play Sakura like Ryu. Let me know how that goes for you.

Evil Ryu - Can’t argue that one. He’s a pretty uninspired character, but people like him. And you can’t argue his tier, since that might change with the new update.

Yun/Yang - As a Third Strike player, this statement blows my mind. The twins are great because they’re twins. They’re very different, though.

Dan - While I might not be a massive fan of him outside of being funny, there’s something enjoyable about a character like Dan/Sean being in a series. And it also makes people who make those character shine that much more special.

I can’t even keep going through this… It’ll take too long.

So let me break this down: If you really think these characters are the same, you’re wrong. If you don’t like the playstyle of the character, don’t use that character, but don’t tell others they can’t be in the game.

I mean, if you can’t have Sagat because, technically, Guile can zone, why have Guile, since Ryu can technically zone? Geez, why not just go crazy with minimalism and get the cast down to basics. I call it “Ryu, Zangief, Yun” fighter! One has a projectile, one is a command grab character, and the other is a rush-down without a projectile! It’s perfect! Why have anyone else? They’d just be clones.

[N0_d3N1AL]

I’m going to assume this is a joke.

But in case it isn’t:

Ken: His differences are almost immediately apparent. Plenty of good players enjoy Ken, unless you’re going to tell me BananaKen is a scrub.

T.Hawk - Not that I like T.Hawk, but he does play arguably different than Zangief.

Gen - Xian… arguably one of the best 5 players in the world, uses Gen. Do I need to justify this to you?

Sakura - Female Ryu? Really? Please. Play Sakura like Ryu. Let me know how that goes for you.

Evil Ryu - Can’t argue that one. He’s a pretty uninspired character, but people like him. And you can’t argue his tier, since that might change with the new update.

Yun/Yang - As a Third Strike player, this statement blows my mind. The twins are great because they’re twins. They’re very different, though.

Dan - While I might not be a massive fan of him outside of being funny, there’s something enjoyable about a character like Dan/Sean being in a series. And it also makes people who make those character shine that much more special.

I can’t even keep going through this… It’ll take too long.

So let me break this down: If you really think these characters are the same, you’re wrong. If you don’t like the playstyle of the character, don’t use that character, but don’t tell others they can’t be in the game.

I mean, if you can’t have Sagat because, technically, Guile can zone, why have Guile, since Ryu can technically zone? Geez, why not just go crazy with minimalism and get the cast down to basics. I call it “Ryu, Zangief, Yun” fighter! One has a projectile, one is a command grab character, and the other is a rush-down without a projectile! It’s perfect! Why have anyone else? They’d just be clones.

Let me put it to you another way. If Capcom just made a character tomorrow who was very similar to another character and that character featured in the next 3 games, you’d argue the exact same thing. Sure, there will be professional players that use the character (even if he sucks) and still do well, and there will be cosmetic differences. The way I’m thinking about it is playstyles. Guile plays differently to Ryu, and he is an iconic character, whereas Sakura is pointless in my opinion. There’s absolutely no reason to use Sakura over other characters - nothing unique.

[Skyhunter]

The CT Thread

Oni - (Akuma clone)

I lol’d hard.

[dx2]

They should bring back SF1 where it is only Ryu and Red Ryu and they have the exact same moves.

Perfectly balanced fighting game, and people will never have trouble picking a character.

[eltrouble]

This thread is going places.

[N0_d3N1AL]

They should bring back SF1 where it is only Ryu and Red Ryu and they have the exact same moves.

Perfectly balanced fighting game, and people will never have trouble picking a character.

Balancing is not about mirror matches. It’s something relative. By definition if two characters are the same then the winner is the one who plays better, since there is nothing but skill to separate them. I’m talking about balance AND variety, and I believe removing unnecessary characters without losing variety can help.

[dx2]

They should bring back SF1 where it is only Ryu and Red Ryu and they have the exact same moves.

Perfectly balanced fighting game, and people will never have trouble picking a character.

Balancing is not about mirror matches. It’s something relative. By definition if two characters are the same then the winner is the one who plays better, since there is nothing but skill to separate them. I’m talking about balance AND variety, and I believe removing unnecessary characters without losing variety can help.

True balance can only be achieved through finite equality though.

Variety intrinsically implies imbalance.

[N0_d3N1AL]

They should bring back SF1 where it is only Ryu and Red Ryu and they have the exact same moves.

Perfectly balanced fighting game, and people will never have trouble picking a character.

Balancing is not about mirror matches. It’s something relative. By definition if two characters are the same then the winner is the one who plays better, since there is nothing but skill to separate them. I’m talking about balance AND variety, and I believe removing unnecessary characters without losing variety can help.

True balance can only be achieved through finite equality though.

Variety intrinsically implies imbalance.

Yes, that’s certainly the trade-off. But without variety the game would be boring and attract fewer players. Having fewer but different characters is better than having only 1 character. But having too many characters which aren’t substantially different enough makes balancing a more difficult task than it needs to be. It creates more work for the developers who, after spending all the time refining the character, it’s all no use because the character is either too unpopular (due to design) or too weak to be considered viable by most players. It may also be the case that the character is not significantly different to a more familiar, better character. If a character doesn’t add anything new and just recycles different combinations of moves, then the character’s not really innovative (e.g. Sakura). Seth can be argued with the same logic, except the moves he has are a combination of some of the best in the game, so gives the player the ultimate character at the expense of low health.

[dx2]

They should bring back SF1 where it is only Ryu and Red Ryu and they have the exact same moves.

Perfectly balanced fighting game, and people will never have trouble picking a character.

Balancing is not about mirror matches. It’s something relative. By definition if two characters are the same then the winner is the one who plays better, since there is nothing but skill to separate them. I’m talking about balance AND variety, and I believe removing unnecessary characters without losing variety can help.

True balance can only be achieved through finite equality though.

Variety intrinsically implies imbalance.

Yes, that’s certainly the trade-off. But without variety the game would be boring and attract fewer players. Having fewer but different characters is better than having only 1 character. But having too many characters which aren’t substantially different enough makes balancing a more difficult task than it needs to be. It creates more work for the developers who, after spending all the time refining the character, it’s all no use because the character is either too unpopular (due to design) or too weak to be considered viable by most players. It may also be the case that the character is not significantly different to a more familiar, better character. If a character doesn’t add anything new and just recycles different combinations of moves, then the character’s not really innovative (e.g. Sakura). Seth can be argued with the same logic, except the moves he has are a combination of some of the best in the game, so gives the player the ultimate character at the expense of low health.

Ultimately all characters play exactly the same way though, using good fundamentals and a variety of normals and special moves independent of execution.

Guile is really the same as Ryu, you play strong footsies and zoning with a projectile and good anti airs with a quick reversal and strong normals.

I would say stylistically, Guile is more similar to Ryu than Sakura is. If Sakura = Girl Ryu then

Ryu = Ryu
Ken = American Ryu
Guile = Charge Ryu
Chun Li = Chinese Ryu
Akuma = Ryuma
etc.

[N0_d3N1AL]

They should bring back SF1 where it is only Ryu and Red Ryu and they have the exact same moves.

Perfectly balanced fighting game, and people will never have trouble picking a character.

Balancing is not about mirror matches. It’s something relative. By definition if two characters are the same then the winner is the one who plays better, since there is nothing but skill to separate them. I’m talking about balance AND variety, and I believe removing unnecessary characters without losing variety can help.

True balance can only be achieved through finite equality though.

Variety intrinsically implies imbalance.

Yes, that’s certainly the trade-off. But without variety the game would be boring and attract fewer players. Having fewer but different characters is better than having only 1 character. But having too many characters which aren’t substantially different enough makes balancing a more difficult task than it needs to be. It creates more work for the developers who, after spending all the time refining the character, it’s all no use because the character is either too unpopular (due to design) or too weak to be considered viable by most players. It may also be the case that the character is not significantly different to a more familiar, better character. If a character doesn’t add anything new and just recycles different combinations of moves, then the character’s not really innovative (e.g. Sakura). Seth can be argued with the same logic, except the moves he has are a combination of some of the best in the game, so gives the player the ultimate character at the expense of low health.

Ultimately all characters play exactly the same way though, using good fundamentals and a variety of normals and special moves independent of execution.

Guile is really the same as Ryu, you play strong footsies and zoning with a projectile and good anti airs with a quick reversal and strong normals.

I would say stylistically, Guile is more similar to Ryu than Sakura is. If Sakura = Girl Ryu then

Ryu = Ryu
Ken = American Ryu
Guile = Charge Ryu
Chun Li = Chinese Ryu
Akuma = Ryuma
etc.

I disagree with Chinese Ryu and Ryuma. Chun Li is nothing like Ryu. She’s not really similar to anyone else. Has a weak fireball game, weaker “Hundred Hand Slap” (the lightning legs move) than Honda but has the overhead, spinning bird kick and headstomps which aren’t found elsewhere. Also character design is very different to Ryu! Akuma incorporates Ryu’s moves but is more of a combo character. He’s expanded out, a more technical, ‘jack-of-all-trades’ Ryu. Akuma accommodates for every playstyle because he has so many moves which give him options.

[dx2]

They should bring back SF1 where it is only Ryu and Red Ryu and they have the exact same moves.

Perfectly balanced fighting game, and people will never have trouble picking a character.

Balancing is not about mirror matches. It’s something relative. By definition if two characters are the same then the winner is the one who plays better, since there is nothing but skill to separate them. I’m talking about balance AND variety, and I believe removing unnecessary characters without losing variety can help.

True balance can only be achieved through finite equality though.

Variety intrinsically implies imbalance.

Yes, that’s certainly the trade-off. But without variety the game would be boring and attract fewer players. Having fewer but different characters is better than having only 1 character. But having too many characters which aren’t substantially different enough makes balancing a more difficult task than it needs to be. It creates more work for the developers who, after spending all the time refining the character, it’s all no use because the character is either too unpopular (due to design) or too weak to be considered viable by most players. It may also be the case that the character is not significantly different to a more familiar, better character. If a character doesn’t add anything new and just recycles different combinations of moves, then the character’s not really innovative (e.g. Sakura). Seth can be argued with the same logic, except the moves he has are a combination of some of the best in the game, so gives the player the ultimate character at the expense of low health.

Ultimately all characters play exactly the same way though, using good fundamentals and a variety of normals and special moves independent of execution.

Guile is really the same as Ryu, you play strong footsies and zoning with a projectile and good anti airs with a quick reversal and strong normals.

I would say stylistically, Guile is more similar to Ryu than Sakura is. If Sakura = Girl Ryu then

Ryu = Ryu
Ken = American Ryu
Guile = Charge Ryu
Chun Li = Chinese Ryu
Akuma = Ryuma
etc.

I disagree with Chinese Ryu and Ryuma. Chun Li is nothing like Ryu. She’s not really similar to anyone else. Has a weak fireball game, weaker “Hundred Hand Slap” (the lightning legs move) than Honda but has the overhead, spinning bird kick and headstomps which aren’t found elsewhere. Also character design is very different to Ryu! Akuma incorporates Ryu’s moves but is more of a combo character. He’s expanded out, a more technical, ‘jack-of-all-trades’ Ryu. Akuma accommodates for every playstyle because he has so many moves which give him options.

I was being facetious.

[N0_d3N1AL]

They should bring back SF1 where it is only Ryu and Red Ryu and they have the exact same moves.

Perfectly balanced fighting game, and people will never have trouble picking a character.

Balancing is not about mirror matches. It’s something relative. By definition if two characters are the same then the winner is the one who plays better, since there is nothing but skill to separate them. I’m talking about balance AND variety, and I believe removing unnecessary characters without losing variety can help.

True balance can only be achieved through finite equality though.

Variety intrinsically implies imbalance.

Yes, that’s certainly the trade-off. But without variety the game would be boring and attract fewer players. Having fewer but different characters is better than having only 1 character. But having too many characters which aren’t substantially different enough makes balancing a more difficult task than it needs to be. It creates more work for the developers who, after spending all the time refining the character, it’s all no use because the character is either too unpopular (due to design) or too weak to be considered viable by most players. It may also be the case that the character is not significantly different to a more familiar, better character. If a character doesn’t add anything new and just recycles different combinations of moves, then the character’s not really innovative (e.g. Sakura). Seth can be argued with the same logic, except the moves he has are a combination of some of the best in the game, so gives the player the ultimate character at the expense of low health.

Ultimately all characters play exactly the same way though, using good fundamentals and a variety of normals and special moves independent of execution.

Guile is really the same as Ryu, you play strong footsies and zoning with a projectile and good anti airs with a quick reversal and strong normals.

I would say stylistically, Guile is more similar to Ryu than Sakura is. If Sakura = Girl Ryu then

Ryu = Ryu
Ken = American Ryu
Guile = Charge Ryu
Chun Li = Chinese Ryu
Akuma = Ryuma
etc.

I disagree with Chinese Ryu and Ryuma. Chun Li is nothing like Ryu. She’s not really similar to anyone else. Has a weak fireball game, weaker “Hundred Hand Slap” (the lightning legs move) than Honda but has the overhead, spinning bird kick and headstomps which aren’t found elsewhere. Also character design is very different to Ryu! Akuma incorporates Ryu’s moves but is more of a combo character. He’s expanded out, a more technical, ‘jack-of-all-trades’ Ryu. Akuma accommodates for every playstyle because he has so many moves which give him options.

I was being facetious.

I think you were spot on with Ken and Guile. Capcom even admitted Ken and Guile were only introduced to please American fans. Ken is a ‘flashy’ Ryu, but to be honest Ryu can be played just as offensively (see xWAx Solid). Guile is pretty much charge Ryu. He trades the frequency of projectiles he can through and limited anti-air for a faster recovery on projectile, more meter and over the years Capcom added the air throw and some other normal moves. Still, his flash kick can be used to punish or used in combos.

[Killer_Jigglypuff]

Holy Jesus God this one of the worst threads in a long time. Remove Makoto because she walks slow? Remove Gen because his “playstyle doesn’t work”? (The fuck does this even mean?) Remove Sagat because Guile zones too?

Holy fuckballs.