I think that the frame buffer system implemented in other games and in Omega mode should be implemented in SF5 for sure. The idea of 1F links (i.e. combos that only work for 1F) are fine, but the executional requirements should be a bit more lenient.
That translation about what Daigo said is taken out of context. If you understand what types of games he likes (hint: Alpha 3 and ST) and what he doesn’t like about SFIV it should be obvious what he means:
When he talks about how many times you can block, he’s referring to Guard Crush. He’s been asking for this since 2009. With Guard Crush, if you block more than 10 times in quick succession (depending on the attacks), you will be vulnerable to attack. This promotes offense.
When he talks about how many times you can tech a throw, he’s referring to penalties associated with throw teching, like in ST where you still lose damage even if you soften the throw. You can’t tech forever in ST. He also dislikes throw breaks because it disrupts the flow of the game (one of the reasons he didn’t like 3rd Strike). He likened it to clinching in Boxing. People want to see fighting, not clinching. Now it could also be interpreted to mean that after a certain amount of techs (which do no damage) you can’t tech again. But this isn’t necessarily a bad idea if you consider games like SFII (pre-ST) where it was impossible to tech at all (it then just boils down to a matter of preference).
When he says that people should be able to due something during blockstun, he is referring to Alpha Counters. Again, this is a reference to SFA3.
For the lower time per round settings, this is something you’ll see in high damage games like Tekken, where players are almost exclusively spaced around poking distance, increasing the tension during matches because 1 hit could potentially mean death, and turtling your way to victory wasn’t really a viable strat. Basically he wants more tense situations, rather than just hang around and wait for people to make mistakes. I don’t agree that lowering the time is the best way to go about it (Dhalsim for example would just poke and then run away), but again, it all ties back to his point that the game should promote play making.
Thanks for the insight on Ilitirit, and I think you may be right about Daigo’s translation being taken out of context. When I first read the story on what he said, I was definitely confused, and was completely opposed to most of what he said. I respect and admire Daigo for the great and versatile player he is, but he really is only speaking as the offensive player he tends to be. I much prefer a fighting game being a nice mixture of offense and defense, not just an outright brawl of who can be the most aggressive, and Daigo is very much an aggressive player.
I’m still a bit confused because I could have sworn Daigo said in an interview like 2-3 yrs ago that his favorite SF of all was SF4 (which ever version was out at the time). I wish I could cite the actual source, but I swear I’m not making that up… Alpha 3 and ST are good games in their own right, but I much prefer Alpha 2 (minus the custom combos which my friends and I never used playing it). I have never liked the idea of guard crush because to me that affects defensive strategy. From what we see of SFV, I like this approach much more, because while yes you can block all you want, you eventually have to turn the tide and go on offense so you can get some recoverable health back. So yeah, block all you want, but at a price if you take an actual hit, similar to focus attacks
Escaping a tech throw but still taking a little damage, ehh, I’m on the fence with that from ST, though I get it. If they decided to bring that back, I guess that’s okay, but prefer the current way of techs where you just cancel the throw.
I have always loved alpha counters, and especially the way they were in Alpha 2, so if that were to be brought back (doubtful), then great. The way they were in Alpha 3 came out like a damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation. Again, I don’t see alpha counters making a comeback, but I get where Daigo was going. But limiting the times someone can block, escaping a throw, and shortening the time?..that is really crazy talk, and just shows that those kinds of games would be geared more towards free for all, aggressive craziness where hardly any strategy could be involved. There’s a reason why people call SF the “chess” of fighting games – it’s strategic and methodical.
AFAIK he’s stated both SF4 and SFAlpha 3 as being his favorites at different points in time.
I like more super jumps.
Strongly against any sort of cross tekken style target combos replacing link combos though. The link system is one thing SFVI does right and I’d like to see it stay the status quo in V. I love grinding out one framers in training mode until I can bust them out in real matches - it’s one of the most satisfying things for instance to pull off Cody’s f.MP, cl.MP, cr.HP, criminal upper in a match. I really don’t want any sort of dumbed down cross tekken chain/juggle/target combos that essentially anyone can pull off. These moves can be in the game but not replacing traditional link style bnbs.
It’s ironic you say “traditional” when SF4 is really only one of a very small amount of games which relies on links.
One frame links suck in all aspects of suckiness. All they do is separate people who can time a button push to 1/60th of a second from people who can’t. What does that have to do with actual skill and strategy? It’s like if there was a rule in football saying that you have to stand on one foot on your tippy toes each time you throw the ball, just so that it makes it harder to do and gives you more satisfaction when you accomplish it. Just plain stupid, but there’s always bound to be people who like it. Let there be an input buffer that still allows links to exist but gives one or two frames more leniency. That wouldn’t hurt anything.
SFxT doesn’t replace traditional links, they’re just not as stupidly rigid with frames like SF4. Boost Chains nobody will miss obviously, but Tekken Chains worked fine, basically 3s target combo stuff taken to the next level…and it worked, cuz the Tekken cast adaptation was a hell of lot more interesting than any original characters Capcom has created in 16 years. Probably could have side-stepped the boost combo system if the SF side of the cast had more 3s/Tekken chain style of stuff, but everybody to busy shitting on SFxT for that game to ever marinate into something really good.
SFxT juggles could lead to some pretty crazy damage off of small stuff due to the tag system, if they can find some middle ground between SFxT solo juggling system and SF4’s characters floating for an eternity while u do nothing, that’d be fine.
Daigo didn’t actually like SFIV… at all. He later cited it as his favourite because of what it did for the scene and because it enabled him to travel to tournaments around the world and play against and meet different people.
In one interview he said that A3, ST and SFIV were most important to him.
http://www.thegamingvault.com/2010/09/15-minutes-with-the-super-street-fighter-iv-world-champion/
Here’s another interview where talks about why he likes Alpha 3:
The bolded lines should give one enough insight about the things Daigo mentioned about SFV. The last part is also worth remembering:
So cool how Daigo’s such a big fan of A3. It’s funny how he basically forces himself to play SF4 tho. If I hated a game, I wouldn’t touch it. Period.
And with clairifying Daigo’s words, I agree with just about all his ideas for V except the timer.
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Yeah that is pretty much what Daigo said. SF4 afforded him tons of travel and money. It is like having a job you loathe that gives you tons of money and benefits you wouldn’t have otherwise. Would be shocked if any pro fighting game player who started fighting games before SFIV actually thought it was the best anything.
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Casuals make up the vast majority of the fanbase, and thus are by far the most important group in terms of revenue. What is the #1 thing that will turn off casuals? Execution. When people play fighting games they want to feel like they can do things. Why were casuals so enthralled by the marvel series? Well it has flash, dial a combos, even many supers are just QCF+PPP or KKK instead of double QCF, HCF, etc. Anyone could pick it up and at least do basic air combos, all the specials, supers (off of an assist hit), so they feel they can actually do some cool stuff and even compete. Then if they were really interested get into comboing into supers and all the super long combo stuff. SF shouldn’t have dial a combos, combos should be specific to characters but it can be cancels instead of links. Training mode should be for advanced set ups, extended optimum combos, character strategies countermoves, not learning a basic bnb.
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Daigo is right that intensity (A3 and ST were hella intense, the tension was crazy and at all times) make for infinitely more exciting and enjoyable matches. In SF4 tournaments there is a ton of lolly gagging, the pace is generally a slog in the neutral game. Obviously depends on the matchup but this seems to be the general case.
I don’t know about Daigo but I found turtling very intense in ST. One bad fireball and it’d be round over, each player looking for that jump-in to end the round. Turtling is boring in SF4 because the stages are huge and most of the time full-screen pressure is shit. There’s no urgency to jump if you’re full-screen when you can focus or just jump forward and land in a dead-zone.
SF4 can be intense in other situations, however.
That is a good point. Huge stages, focus, and then also the implementation of trip guard. Then seemingly everyone has invincible moves that go straight through projectiles on top of that. There is also the slow walk speeds, really slow wake up from hard knockdowns, and generally very low damage that hurts the pace/intensity of the game.
Thanks for the sources! I knew I wasn’t crazy, but I just mistook his statement on SF4 then. Again, I respect the man, but I will have to respectfully disagree with him on his views on Alpha 3, especially guard crush being the best system mechanic ever. Again, I see this view under the bias of his preferred aggressive play style – virtually always being on the attack. No, we don’t want to play someone who always turtles, but so be it; I learned years ago how to deal with people who like to play that way. You change up your attack patterns to trip them up some way. On the flip side, can you imagine going up against someone like Poongko’s Seth, or Smug’s Dudley with guard crush?..really?!
Alpha 3 was special, in that it had a bunch of ideas that, to me, weren’t completely fleshed out all that great. In Alpha 3, you had to be very active and virtually always pushing buttons either to attack, or escape, but even if you did escape or counter someone’s attack, you still can get hit or punished somehow. That was my biggest issue with A3. Yeah, it was a decent game, but between the 3, I would put it a distant 2nd behind Alpha 2.
I always found it interesting that Japan preferred Zero 3 whereas the west tended to go more for Zero 2.
Zero 3 is superior in every way to me, especially gameplay which had a nicer/faster pace. Zero 2 had some of the best stages in an SF game.
LOL Zero 3.
And lets not forget bullshit like the fact that at times, getting hit by a fireball at full screen did less damage than chip (and the fact that fireballs were pretty ass in that game anyway).
EDIT: Taken from the old "[Projectile damage in various fighting games](Projectile damage in various fighting games thread.
Alpha 3 Ryu takes 15 fierce fireballs to kill from point blanks and 27 from full screen.
Compare this with HDR (used since ST’s damage comes from a random damage table) which lets him kill in 10 and Alpha 2 which lets him do it in 12.
I’m tired of balance and constant retooling being their main dev focus. I don’t give a crap about how “balanced” SFIV is anymore. The fact is that SFIV never felt right as a Street Fighter game, and all they did was magnify the game’s design flaws by trying to constantly tweek the system to balance out the roster. The game has been boring since Super, and when a game is boring, it doesn’t matter if every matchup is 5-5. I really hope they focus on how SFV feels as a fighting game, how satisfying it is to play, how it controls. At the end of the day, it is a video game, and that’s all I want: I want a good video game with tight, satisfying mechanics.
He didn’t force himself to play it. He and Nuki tried the game out, and they both agreed that it sucked so Nuki went back to playing 3S and ST. But Daigo soon realised that he was better than 95% of the rest of the SFIV players so he played until he reached the top of the BP ranking. After that tournaments started popping up everywhere (Japan Nationals, US Nationals, EVO and weekly TRF and regular NSB Japan tournaments). Daigo kept playing because the game had more competition than other games, in Japan and the rest of the world.
I think it has been brought up before, but until now i didn’t exactly know what it was that felt “off”. The characters blend into the background, difficult to differentiate the character sillhouette and their moves from it.
Hope that will be addressed.