Surprise surprise, Daigo said the game looks too slow. And hints that it should not cater toward beginners.
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Well Daigo (and Nuki) also thought SF4 was a pile of dog shit when it came out so…oh wait they were right. I guess there is cause for concern. Not to mention it is the same devs (Dimps).
This is the quote, and really there is no way to argue against it. Footsies in SF4 are trash, probably the most fucked up hitboxes/hurtboxes ever. Anyways SFV hopefully takes a page from earlier SFs, if it is like SFIV it doesn’t matter what other strengths the game has it will suck.
Don’t be silly. I could name about a dozen other games with worse hitboxes.
Even Alpha 3 was really really bad in some cases.
Name them, I’d be interested. I am also talking about overall, not just a bad/good hitbox for a single move or set of moves.
Are you serious? Do you really want me to list a dozen shitty games with bad hitboxes that noone cares about because there are far worse things wrong with them?
Any version of SF before SFIV released on PC. In fact, nearly every fighting game released on PC between 1990 and about 1997. Special shout out to Bikini Karate Babes from 2000-and something. Holosseum (“oh wow, my 5 hit move just mysteriously whiffed through all it’s 400 active frames”). Time Killers and most other games that use a “priority” system. SF2:WW (“hey look I can walk right through tatsus without blocking”, “check me out i’ve got a random critical hurtbox that causes me to lose 50% health on hit”, “hey i’m blanka sometimes my blanka ball will whiff for no reason”, “hay guise we are ryu and ken we can DP you can get punished on hit”). Vanilla SFxT (aka SF: No Anti-Air Edition).
This is a stupid waste of time. Yeah SFIV has poorly placed hitboxes, but it’s far from the worst. Maybe it’s just a better idea to state what you don’t like about SFIV’s hit-boxes, and then someone with more knowledge can either explain why it’s like that, why’re you’re wrong, or agree with you. It’s much more productive than repeatedly bashing games you don’t like in the hope that A: You appear to be knowledgeable about these games, and B: That it’s somehow going to make SFV a better game.
In regards to that: I’m not really getting the discussion, so I’d appreciate it if someone could spell out why they have issues with SF4 hitboxes. Is it the size of the hitboxes or how they function in conjunction with the character hurtboxes? The only other hitboxes I’ve got to compare with are from ST, and to my knowledge those are considered completely batshit insane even compared to games with “better” hitboxes than SF4.
I’ve got issues with the SF4 neutral game and buttons myself, but the things that annoy me can generally be boiled down to “fuck focus attacks” and annoyances at the anti-air-game(which is partially due to the lacking hitboxes on anti-airs, but perhaps more because of lacking active frames and how insanely long hitstun jump-ins have).
The idea that A2 hitboxes were “better” are only in the sense that they were “bigger” and the fact that they were properly designated for all frames instead of based on animation + model which causes all sorts of wonkyness unless you specifically tweak them. You CAN have them attached to body parts and make them work well but you gotta actually do SOME work towards designating the sizes/positions relative to the body parts and not just leave the entire thing left up to how the animation looks.
Now in A2 many hitboxes were bigger and hurtboxes smaller than other SF games. This only has 2 advantages:
- Specific moves become more dominate as they can cover a larger area of the screen. This can be also seen as a negative as it reduces the need to utilize the full toolset of a character but that is opinion based which is more “ideal”
- Reduces the ranges which normals trade, mostly important for anti airing.
It doesn’t actually affect how far you can be for whiff punishing, in fact it often reduces how far you can be because the hurtbox you need to hit is closer to the opponent.
Here is ST Ken’s jHK and ST Ryu’s crHP
Looks like ST Ryu’s crHP has a great HB right? The blue part is the hurtboxes though and Ryu’s crHP hitbox has to hit Ken’s jHK hurtbox, there is plenty of places Ken can jump and hit ryu and beat his crHP cleanly, in addition it’s actually pretty easy to make it trade:
Take a look at how deeply Ryu has to hit Ken to actually have it anti air, and in this overlay it would result possibly in a trade:
http://i.imgur.com/2V9OivX.png
However on the flip side, you see how large Ryu’s crHP hitbox is makes it cover a large area. It’s much harder to make it flat out WHIFF if you try and do something like a crossup or change which jump in you use which is a huge advantage. Think of how Sakura can make some anti airs whiff with her jHP because the hurtbox is pretty small.
Take a look at Ryu’s crHP in USF4 and Ken’s jHK in USF4
http://i.imgur.com/WR6T1Ie.png
http://i.imgur.com/DYNxyJx.png
As you can see, the hitboxes are much smaller and the hurtboxes much larger. While on their own this isn’t a big deal it does cause a problem. Even though the jHK has a bigger hurtbox, Ken could go for a totally different jump in with a very different hurtbox. The smaller hitbox on the crHP reduces the amount of space it covers resulting in more chances for it to whiff if you try and anti air the wrong jump in. In addition the larger the hurtbox the more chance of a trade. If both characters have their hitbox touching the other characters hurtbox on the same frame it’ll result in a trade, when you make moves have hitboxes surrounded by hurtboxes it increases the chances of having two characters having their hitboxes touching each others hurtboxes on the same frame.
In addition, you notice the tons of little hurtboxes on Ken’s jHK in USF4 vs ST? In ST his jHK only has 3 hurtboxes total, in USF4 it has 9! It creates all sorts of weird interactions and such because hurtboxes shift A LOT more often. If you look at older games you never had tilted hit/hurtboxes either so it wasn’t possible to “hit on a corner” like you can with Blanka balls in USF4 creating differences in pushback distances because hit/hurtboxes couldn’t rotate. This creates a more static and understandable set of interactions between moves rather than ones that could shift dramatically between one frame and the next frame.
That is some of the problems with SF4 hitboxes, but also why old school hitboxes are imo not exactly well done either. Bigger is not always better, there needs to be a stronger balance between the two. Honestly, other than using animations to generate hurtboxes and having hitboxes/hurtboxes able to rotate the SF4 hitboxes aren’t that bad. The anti airs could use a buff, especially in regards to damage but the ground vs ground interactions only need a slight adjustment to reduce trades not make god buttons.
As it is, you can do some of the same stuff and get similar results. Itazan utilizes Zangief’s farMP in a similar fashion to how D3v describes Rose’s crMP being used, and that is even after the nerf to farMP. Daigo used to use Ryu’s crMK like that all the time. I’ve seen Sasaki chase people down just doing repeated F+MPs with Cody back to back to back. I’ve seen Filipino man beat people almost exclusively using Rose’s farHK. Can’t leave out how dominating Adon’s farHK is in many matchups.
The big issue in regards to footsies is focus attacks. Level 1 counterhit focus attacks causing a crumple and level 2 being relatively quick to charge for an armored move that is + on block, deals good damage, can be canceled pre-emptively to prevent commitment, and leads to max damage combos on hit while usually having very good range and prevents the opponent from walking out of range due to causing proximity blocking the entire time the focus attack is charging.
Some of his ideas seem to be whack though.
And I disagree with anything said about the long blockstun, which addresses an issue with IV where the blockstun was too short and people were able to simply mash out of it.
He is probably referring more to the hitstop period rather than the advantage onblock. How much actual time it takes before characters can move again seemed to be quite long in the preview. However it does create a nice sense of weight to attacks.
If anyone posted that shit on SRK they would get trolled to oblivion. Limit on tech throws? 45 second rounds? WTF?
He wants 45 seconds?! Why?! I’d like to enjoy the fight thank you…
Making rounds last 45 seconds wouldn’t make the game more aggressive. You’d just have more Black Hawk Down situations:
[quote=“Alexisdabomb, post:1132, topic:172857”]
Making rounds last 45 seconds wouldn’t make the game more aggressive. You’d just have more Black Hawk Down situations:
[/quote]Oh lol, I think I played against that guy once, except he set the rounds to 1 rather than bo3, just for added hilarity.
But Eternal…no one would ever anti-air a Ken long distance jump in using cr.HP.
as a matter of fact cr.HP was almost never used as an anti-air…from what I remember while playing during the SF2 days. the two most used anti-air normals used by Ryus…(including by me since he was my main in CE and HF) was far standing HK and believe or not close standing HP. believe it or not close standing hp was more used as an anti-air than cr. hp.
Crouching HP was never used as an anti-air.
Never…unless the jump in was really deep in(over your head),…and to be honest people would just use Ryu’s close stand HK for those “right over head” anti-airs…which believe it or not really worked well in those situations.
as for SF4, Ryu’s best most reliable anti-airs are far standing lk and cr. hp.
why?
cuz the hitbox + active frames for far standing hk sucks hard. too unreliable as an anti-air.
but I don’t really know what point you are making but I don’t really know why you composed that pic of Ryu doing cr. hp against Ken’s jump in hk at that particular distance. no SF2 player would ever do that.
At that distance of Ken’s jump in the button to hit is far st. hk and nothing else in SF2.
in SF4 I personally would never hit hk since that’s too much of a risk now. its active frames + hitbox is bullshit.
But in SF4, i do admit people feel compelled to hit cr. hp to anti-air ken’s jump in at that distance that your pic shows, but its only because of the failure of far. st. hk.
There’s nothing more maddening as an old SF2 Ryu mainer than hitting far. st. HK at the appropriate time & distance and the move trading or losing flat out to a jump in.
makes me wanna throw my $300 custom stick right out the window.
its one of the reasons I don’t play Ryu in SF4. Every time I do…I regret it.
(p.s.
Ryu was my main HF & CE but in SSF2 it was Cammy.
in Vanilla SF2 it was Guile.)
Just my thoughts on some random topics brought up in this thread…
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One-frame links
They’re okay. But I’d REALLY like it if reversal mashing was less lenient, as I don’t think its fair that I have to do some “5 button super plink ultra tech” bullshit in order to link a one-framer, while my opponent just mashes ultra waiting for me to screw up. Makes me play extremely safe. -
Footsies
They’re okay in SF4, just not that rewarding due to AA’s trading and CH lvl. 1 focus being a good deterrent against slow pokes. Capcom needs to make sure that there is no game mechanic which hinders the effectiveness of basic poking. -
Oki
Its become pure bullshit in USF4. It went from being all about herp-derp 50/50 to now giving the defender way too many options. How about a happy medium? You should be rewarded for getting knock downs, not have to worry about a million defensive options -
Tech
I don’t care how they do it, I don’t want the next game to be all about some “super-secret OS plink 3-button one-frame proximity OS super mega” bullshit. Its one thing to have tech based on safe-jumps and character-specific punishes, its another to have tech based on something unintentional (plinking). The roll cancel in CVS2 is another good example of this. Not a fan. -
Daigo’s opinion
Limit projectile blocking after “x” amount of times? Say hello to Guile owning the whole cast 9-1. I value Daigo’s opinion greatly and he’s my favorite player to watch, but this is still absurd. There are better ways to make the game offensive.
Wall of text incoming:
The fact that different buttons might be less useful in one game than another bother me that much(granted, with one exception, which I’ll get back to), although I can see where you’re coming from in that your natural AA options are less powerful than it used to. That being said, the problem with the AA game in SF4 isn’t only the hitboxes, and I believe that the point Eternal tried to make: yes, AA normals (and specials) in SF2 had far, far better hitboxes, but the exact same thing can be said for jump-in attacks. While certain moves definitely can beat any jump-in based on their hitbox alone(hello, Flash Kick), it’s not uncommon for me to trade if I try to uppercut a Ken j.HK as O.Sagat. And yet, the risk-reward for jumping in SF2 is completely different than it is in SF4. And because I’m bored out of my mind right now I’ll list all the reasons I can think of for that:
- as you mentioned in your post: SF4 moves have far fewer active frames across the board, which means the grounded character will have a smaller margin of error for when to press the button. Jumping attacks also have a bit fewer active frames, but they’re still easier to time than AAs.
- SF2 has no tripguard, unlike SF4. Sweep anti-airs is one of my absolute favorite things in any fighting game that has it (incidentally I love both ST and KOF13), as it’s both easy to time, and it covers a portion of the screen that it’s hard to cover in SF4. It also gives a knockdown I can use, which brings me to my next point…
- hitting an airborne opponent with a special in ST gave you a knockdown. Remember the case earlier where my TU traded with Ken j.HK? Unless I’m at a huge life deficit (which I shouldn’t be, because I’m playing fucking O.Sagat), this trade is heavily in my favor. Because my opponent gets knocked down, he has to block meaty lk low tiger -> hk low tiger and get pushed back fullscreen, and then I’m completely in control of the game again. This also applies if I get my beloved sweep anti air, or if I snipe someone out of the air with a fireball(which I incidentally also love to do). Not to mention that…
- Anti-airs generally do a more damage in SF2, which we all already know. Still, back to the TU - j.HK-trade: Sagat takes somewhere between 10 and 15% damage from the j.HK, if I’m not mistaken. Ken takes around 20%, and then has to block two fireballs worth of chip. In other words, that one jump cost him about 25% of his health and gave away his screen position entirely. Any other character could also get safejumped and mixed up. It’s true that you can get better than that from an AA in SF4, but it’s harder to time and it usually requires meter. And there’s another important factor that comes in here:
- the reward for a jump-in in SF4 is usually far higher than in SF2. In SF2, getting punished for a fireball by jumping usually means someone hit my extended limbs with a jumping attack, which is like 10-15% health, and usually leaves my opponent at an favorable spot and with some frame advantage. In SF4, I lose 30-40% of my health to that jump-in and get knocked down after the combo, because jumping attacks have so much more hitstun than in SF2. Of course, jump-in combos CAN happen in SF2 as well (and that usually means stun aka instant death, not just a third of your health), but it’s far less common for a jump-in to hit so deep that you can combo off of it.
tldr: there are several reasons beyond just hitboxes that screw up the AA game in SF4. Also don’t jump in ST.
Fuck, now I wanna play ST. Of course GGPO is down now x_x
I think I’ve said it before but here are my thoughts gameplay-wise:
Stun Meter. 3S had one, it was very useful, I don’t remember even a single ardent 3S hater disliking it. Why make the Stun Gauge hidden? That makes no sense to me and they have plenty of room on the HUD to add it.
No 1-Frame Links for everyone. The combo system should not be based on it. Because for one, it’s extremely difficult for beginners to pick up 1-Frame Links, and generally they’re not easy at all. And two, you could have GDLK netcode but in the slightest bit of lag it will drop. So, go for Cross Tekken-style links, or Target Combos for everyone, or just a traditional SF combo system. 1-Frame Links need to be taken out, shot in the back of the head, buried in a shallow ditch, and shit on by wildlife.
Super jumps for every character. Why not? Makes it more aggressive.
No hard knockdowns (except for Supers). You guys want the game to be more aggressive? Just make it so you can quick-rise from virtually anything. No more brain dead vortex shit.
More things punishable on block. I dunno about you guys, but I don’t like seeing a character just throw out a pointblank fireball or sweep and they’re safe. 3S did this and it worked fine. It didn’t nullify the fireball game but made it so you had to play smarter. You want to fireball zone? Okay, you have to mix it up more or burn meter on EX to make yourself safe. Seems fair.
Rollback netcode or bust. Anyone who says delay-based netcode or SF4’s netcode is fine is a retard. Fact.
Selectable grooves? I’d be okay with this. It would be hard to balance but I think if Genei-Jin/Alpha mode is kept in check it should be fine.
Very few SF2 characters. I think even Joe Sixpack is bored with the original 12 characters with few exceptions. There’s so many more interesting counter parts to choose from. Why have Dhalsim or Blanka return when you can bring back Necro who’s an infinitely more interesting character? Why bring back Gief when you can bring back Alex or Birdie? Fei Long? How about Karin? She has Rekka’s. And etcetera.
The point I was making would be pretty obvious if you directly read what I said about the hitboxes rather than concentrating on a specific situation I used. You know, the content of the post is still valid. I could have used ANY hitboxes for this. The point was to show how hitboxes are different and how the interactions work.
I remember that one of the older members from SFII basically stated that SFIV made it so that easy stuff from SFII was now harder to do because of 1 frame links.
Hehe’ I saw you on something somethin step (forgot the name).com
I’m getting into 3D fighters aka Doa5 Final round on PC. 