Street Fighter V Balance/Match Up Discussion - SHOW ME YOUR MATCH UPS

Okay. 200 games with Laura. Let’s write something. (ULTRA BRONZE B O I S)

I can only really sum her up as “Meh”. Whilst she has the potential to end rounds in less than 15 seconds, 350+ damage punishes and very strong mixups from EXFB Resets, a lot of characters have the tools to make getting in and staying in very difficult.

Her normals aren’t too great in the neutral game. I find myself having to rely on the opponent making a mistake much more than I dare to really get in there and challenge them to a footsie war, since once Laura’s back is on the ground, you’re without a paddle unless you spend bar to push them away.

Up close, they seem to work. s.MP and cr.MP are great for setting up her frame trap game since they’re +3/+2, her s.LK is another, too. It’s just none of her normals can really stand up to other characters in neutral (SUP CHUN N BIRDIE)

Another thing is that whilst some characters have Airtight Okizeme (Bison, Chun, FANG etc) Laura finds herself either -2 or 0 after nearly everything she does whilst getting in. It feels like I have to make about 3 or 4 more reads per game than I do when playing Bison, who I feel just has SO much more going for him.

I suck at writing stuff like this, so uh…

tl;dr - Laura is good, not amazing. Middle of the road. Loses to Chun, Karin, Vega(?) and imo, beats Ken, Rashid, Necalli and Gief.

why would laura beat Necalli?

Necalli has good normals and can pressure her on wakeup. He has great damage and a dp.

Seems like Necalli beats her imo

I’ve got nothing for you, I just haven’t had any trouble with him what so ever, yet. He wants to be in my grill, I want to be in his. Seems like Laura’s up close game just wins out.

Until he gets V-Trigger, anyway. VNecalli is aids. So scary. :frowning:

I agree except necalli
sadly she loses big time to Karin, vega, and chun
and its unfortunate that there are many more chun, Karin, and vega players than there are ken, Rashid and gief
it really sucks to be a laura player right now

I feel like her normal are so ass compared to majority of the cast

So how would you rate Nash neutral game and normal buttons ?

Agree it doesnt make it any better that these are pretty much the only charcters people are using. Its moreso frustrating. Nothing but Karin, Vega, Chun, Ken, Ryu, and the occasional Bison.

Im just trying to figure out what Capcom was thinking when creating her moveset. Compared to everyone she was handed nothing but shit on a paper plate while they got the majority needed to be a threat on a silver plater. Her command grab’s range is atrocious.

Current distribution of of characters in the top 100 ranking worldwide:

Cammy 6
Sim 7
Nash 12
Ryu 8
Laura 4
Necalli 7
Birdie 8
Bison 15
Ken 7
Chun 5
Vega 3
Rashid 4
R.mika 7
Fang 1
Gief 1
Karin 4

Bison and Nash are clear standouts for more character representation than others in the top 100.

Does it mean anything?

Well I’ll let you guys be the judge of that.

But if we were ranking this by way of tiers then it would be:

Bison
Nash
Ryu birdie
Sim necalli ken mika
Cammy
Chun
Rashid Laura Karin
Vega
Fang gief


For reference GutterMagic is the top Thunder player from KI who got 2nd at Evo. Hes a big fan of grapplers and started as a FPS player. KI was his first competitive fighting game.

I played against GutterMagic a couple of times online pre-release. He has a good gief. He goes for jump-in too much though.

My friend who plays Laura tells me she’s a crapper Mika.

Early on Bison is going to dominate this game because most people aren’t studying frame data. Once you learn to stop pressing buttons he’s going to fall off. He’s got great loopable pressure but can’t follow up throws well as you just get the tip of a meaty Axe. He’ll fall off once people start remembering how to footsie and just walk him into the corner.

I’ve mainly been thinking about character archetypes for this game. There are several distinct categories

Big Button Grappler: This is how we tend to think of the classic true grappler. They have long, slowish buttons to use in the neutral, and then once they’ve convinced you to stop hitting buttons they dash in and grab you. Zangief is the big man here, although Birdie is very much an evolution of the archetype who trades the long ranged command grab for better defense, setups, and movement speed in Vtrigger.

Strike Grappler: A bit of a chance from the previous versions, this is a character who leans fairly heavily on their command throws but also has good up close frametraps to catch people trying to escape the grabs. Their footsies tend to be really poor (which is the big change from the previous versions), but they get a diverse array of movement options to try and get in once they notice an error. Laura and R.Mika fit in here. They’re also heavily reliant on resets rather than knockdowns for looping pressure.

Face or Ankle Rushdown: These characters have two zones they want to be at, either in your face or at the edge of their ankle. Ken and Necalli are the two guys here, who either like being directly on top of you for somewhat oppressive pressure or to hang out right at the edge of their st.hk or equivalent range. They have a bit of a deadzone between the two (Necalli less so due to his EX Grab), but can force throw/DP mixups in addition to the standard strike/throw or try and stuff your buttons for great damage at the edge of footsie range. Ken’s pressure is more loopable but his deadzone is bigger and he lacks a command grab. Nash also fits in here; great far away buttons, great up close buttons, bit of a deadzone between the two. He gets the Sonic Boom as well which is the best fireball in the game to compliment his approach

Foooooootsiesssss: Somewhat self explanatory, they badger you with great buttons to slowly chip away at your health until you make a mistake and they come in for strike/throws. Karin, Cammy, Chun, Ryu, and Vega all fit here. They basically don’t have the same sort of deadzone that the above characters have and can often contest the Ankle range of footsies but often aren’t as scary up close (such as Karin’s throws suck despite her combo damage or that Vega doesn’t do much damage in Claw stance, most have small throw ranges albeit good walk speed). Vega’s a bit of a wildcard here as he can change to a more rushdown character in Barehanded Stance which widens his deadzone, removes his great long range pokes, but ups his confirm damage immensely and gives him a command throw for mixups. Basically he’s got weaker rushdown in footsie mode than other footsie characters and weaker footsies in rushdown mode than the other footsie characters. Probably some of the best footsies around in Claw Stance though. Birdie is basically a hybrid of this and the Big Button Grappler

Shenangians: As it said, these characters are weird enough that I don’t really have a read on them yet. This is mainly Dhalsim and Rashid. Lots of gimmicks and weird stuff so they’re fairly unique and I have no clue how they’ll end up being played

Zoners: FANG mainly; he’s a slight change on the archetype, what with his VSkill and arcing fireballs but the core concept is the same. You have long range buttons to tap people trying to get in, poison forces them to come at you, but your fireball constraints their ability to jump while your long buttons stop grounded pressure. Ryu is a more footsies oriented take on the concept. Dhalsim is technically a zoner I suppose but he might end up as more of a tricky setup rushdown character, I have no clue.

Hybrids and New Types: All the above are recognizable archetypes or a bin for stuff I don’t understand in the case of shenanigans. The new understandable archetypes and hybrids are Birdie, M.Bison, and Vega.

Birdie is a similar thought to the Big Body Grappler who instead wants to force the opponent to come to him rather than making them scared so he can get in, call it a Defensive Big Body. This is accomplished by still having the Big Body Grappler buttons but also by making his anti-air impeccable and giving him setups that are scary if you let him get them out. You don’t want to deal with a Birdie on a lifelead with a Banana down or a Birdie bearing down on you while a can rolls along the ground. These take a lot of time to setup, but if you’ve conditioned the opponent not to come at you then you can often toss them down. This is for the classic grappler characters who liked it when their opponents were afraid to come at them thanks to the 2f SPDs; you might not be able to blow through blockstrings but you can punish reckless offense easily.

Ryu is of course somewhat of a hybrid of the zoner and the footsie character. Good fireball, solid footsies, can keep out but has decent up close game.

M.Bison is what I like to call Tank Footsies. Bison has no safe mobility options at all. The dash can get jabbed, his SKs are minus on block and you have terrible defensive options, HS has no tracking and DR has a hurtbox a mile wide. His walkspeed is almost non-existent. His up close pressure is laughable compared to the Face or Ankle Rushdown characters. But goddamn his buttons are good and if someone tries to mash at all there is no character that will take care of them more easily. Bison is an experiment to see if a character who has little way of threatening to open you up nor a great footsie game due to his walkspeed can be good if you just make his buttons really good to compensate. He’s going to absolutely dominate early on but we’ll see if this falls off.

Vega I discussed above in Footsies but I think it’s apt to bring him up again. He gets to swap between a super strong footsie character with weak rushdown and a good rushdown character with good footsies. If you put footsies and rushdown as adding to 10 he goes between something like 7-3 and 5-5. A Face or Ankle Rushdown character is more like 4-6 or 3-7 while a footsie character is often 6-4. It gives him a lot of versatility.

So to sum up

Big Body Grapplers: Zangief
Strike Grapplers: Laura, R.Mika
Face or Ankle Rushdown: Ken, Necalli, Nash
Footsies: Cammy, Chun, Karin, Ryu
Zoners: Fang
Shenanigans: Rashid, Dhalsim
Defensive Big Body: Birdie
Tank Footsies: M.Bison
Rushdown or Footsies: Vega

This is somewhat thought out, somewhat stream of consciousness. Opinions?

i think thats a decent early breakdown of the cast Muttonman, would be useful to someone trying to pick a character

I just wanted to put in my two cents saying thanks for this wrap up. I’m an old fart dad gamer, so my SF time is pretty limited. I already know what kind of characters I like (footsies for days) so your post already answered the question that I was about to ask. Which was to ask which characters in SFV had the best footsies games so I could start out with those characters instead of having to poke around with the whole cast.

Aside from footsies the other (kinda odd) thing that I like is playing characters that are less common / popular. Not that I’m trying to handicap myself with low tier characters. But I honestly just hate seeing the same old X characters again and again online so I like picking something fresh myself. Given that some of the other footises folks are always popular old timers (Chun, Ryu) maybe I should start out with giving Karin a try.

I want to know what the deal is, and what the best approach is to counter nash’s crossup mk. I do not understand that move, it’s just ridiculously ambiguous. Sometimes I’ll block it regularly even though it looks like a crossup, and vice versa. My issue with is is not just how ambiguous it is, but that the time to react to what side you were hit/blocked at makes it tough to register what side he will land on.

On my first try I got to Level 50 on Survival Hard with Nash. Then while playing with 40% health, I lost to Necalli :frowning:

What are the best ways to punish Nash’s “jaguar kick”-looking move and Rashid’s tornado and subsequent crossup pressure after he releases the tornado at you?

Specifically, punishing those two moves with Chun-Li or Karin.

Nash’s somersault kick can easily be beaten. Easiest way to do it is using your character’s anti-air.

Pretty much any button with a higher hitbox will stuff Moonsaults. Just run your face over the buttons and it’ll probably work.

No clue on Rashid, but properly timed EX Rainbow Palm or EX Spinning Bird Kick should work.

ITT we complain that our own character is shit

except for Chun players who are mostly convinced they play the best character in the game

high five for DevilJin and Sephiroth. Dime_X soon you will know the true power of Chun Li too

I don’t think chun is #1 but bottom 5 is laughable. She is also probably the only character in the game with legit difficult execution that no one has 100% down now. When chun starts doing st. Mp->cr. MkxxMK sbk on every punish people are going to reevaluate her ‘low damage’. Also her st. RH CC’s are more difficult then most so there will be a big change when people start getting consistent 35% meter less do punishes or 50% with meter.

Also some matchup unfamiliarity. Like snake vs Ricky and Ricky never used st. RH even once? Come on ricky, that is the win button vs Gief. He also fell for the sa.w cr. FP whiff spd mixup literally like 20 times. Shit will change after awhile.

Characters with easy answers and high damage always start out stronger. Real talk though, Nash and Dhalsims are probably the 2 best in thus game but Nash likely loses to Cammy so Dhalsims might be #1.

Dahlsim
Such fucking cheese