If the discussion were is technique or physique more important to winning a match, and there were a clear contrast where one person was physically stronger and the other had better technique, then yes their fighting would have some value as evidence. (edit: or in fighting games, if there was an argument over whether MSS beats Santhrax a match might be a good way to decide, or you could ask a specific game expert like Shoultz)
That’s not really the discussion anymore though. Everyone basically agrees about that point (which in fairness was the original topic), and now we’re talking about something different. Skill at playing a game does not mean you understand the concepts of designing a game. It does give you some insight on the characteristics of your particular game, and on what it takes to be good at your particular game, but it doesn’t generalize well.
Especially when you get the ‘fanboy’ effect going. If I think Tekken 3 is the perfect fighting game, and I’m the absolute best Tekken 3 player in the world (I don’t, and I’m not), it’s still a bit suspect if I say the best way for games to be is like Tekken 3. Even if I am the best (again, not), my love of that particular game can cloud my vision of anything else.
Shoultz, for instance, plays, and totally loves Vampire and MvC2. I think I’ve seen him say that one or the other is the best or even perfect game in every discussion of any characteristic of any games he takes part in. That being said, its not surprising that he thinks games should be like the games he personally loves, but it does also reflect a lack of perspective.
Xes just shut the fuck up and leave. The only thing you contributed to this site is circular arguments and false info. This site used to be about breaking down fighting games only a few still do that. but you(xes) haven’t done anything but complain.
You little illiterate fucking pussy, absolutely nobody is fucking theory fighting in this thread. The closest part to theory are your retarded jabs at me for no god damn reason. Had you read the thread you would’ve known that I have defended the people who like execution as well as every opinion here. I already killed once and now I’m gonna bury you with it.
Because you see the difference is that there are more points of view to this. If you could actually read you might’ve noticed my posts and understood that this is complicated cookie jar. But instead you go around randomly dismissing shit like you have the biggest nuts on this site because you’re a seasoned tournament player who never got a top 8 at Evo. By your standards, who the fuck cares about your ass? Oh nobody? Well fuck me. Because the part that people are somewhat angry about is that we were promised a game that would be easy to pick up for new people and instead got SF4. SF4 has some fucking crazy execution for a lot of the max punish stuff and even some of the simple combos that are helpful. You want to do that Jab, Sweep with Rog? Eat a motherfucking 1 frame link straight in the eye. This is a game for beginners you say? Well make sure that one of the new characters has a 1 frame link as a BnB, another requires a fuckload of QCF/QCB canceling shenanigans and the other one has trials which need super jump cancels which are never explained to new people and the rest of the cast did not have at the time.
But I apologize for not being a “seasoned tournament player.” I went to Final Round to play SF4 and T6. Does that do it for you? Not good enough credentials I guess. Let’s look at Truth Telling Bastard Pertho can do with his Anthropology credentials:
The problem we have with the issue at a macro level is that fighting games will always have a execution requirement since all players are required to input motions. Therefore the main problem becomes how big should that execution barrier be. Unfortunately the OP didn’t really have a good way to structure the discussion. This has nothing to do with Ukyo as a poster since he is usually rather nice about contributing things in the Valentine Sub-Forum. He simply did not understand what he was unleashing. Had he defined what the arguments better then he would’ve saved many of us a lot of words.
But because he didn’t define it your friendly neighborhood Pertho will educate all of the non-believers in what is really going on in the thread. I will do this because you are ignorant of literacy at a comprehensive level. While you spew your mouth not addressing arguments and having the gull to insult me, you forget that these are ultimately games to be enjoyed by a variety of people. As such the variety of people who enjoy fighting games on this site in different ways have brought some different points of view. These are separated loosely as:
Game designer point of view.
Fighting Game Enthusiast.
People who started from SF4.
People who have been playing since SF2.
People who play with those who don’t.
Those five broad categories encompass the game developers who like making challenging games, those who would like games to be as inclusive as possible, people who want to Fate/Stay Night execution, and those who have written extensively about the benefits of simple mode. The issue isn’t so much who is wrong but that all of these views are valid for different reasons. As such the issue becomes hard in this place. The difference between you and me is that I am a scientist first and foremost. You want to spew bullshit about being a tournament player, I would rather do execution surveys where I get a massive amount of people to do motions on stick and pad to see what really is acceptable, threading the line and nonsensical.
Because you see we know what is nonsensical. Ono made damn sure we knew where the line into “this is fucking stupid” for motions is: one button moves that do not account for the ease of input. For better or worse this is the line where shit gets dumb. By the same token we have, on this very site, motherfucking Mike Z explaining why he included 360 motions but made it so the characters could do it easier. It appears that the actual stick motions contribute to limiting the moves.
But we aren’t addressing these important points, we are talking about your idiocy inside this thread. The one erroneously targets me at some random scrub with a vendetta against execution. Because this random scrub plays Thor in MVC3, I have to do a combo to move across the screen. The entire time that I’ve posted in the thread I’ve been grinding Alpha Patroklos Just Frame moves. I have bad execution but I’ll be damned if being able to do a couple of reps of Sol’s dust loop in #R didn’t get off fucking hard.
It is lamentable that we can’t flush the amount of diarrhea you throw into the thread. MvC2 alone can be laughed at out of the place because 90% of the execution was doing what you wanted properly not so much combos. The great thing about high level MvC2 is that most of the 3 out of the 4 top tier characters are still fucking great without needing massive execution. Storm is still fantastic character if you can’t do her Sentinel infinite; the only hard thing about Cable is tiger kneeing a qcf; Sentinel is still imposing for a variety of things not named fast fly. Instead of admitting to these things you rather wave some flag on execution. But wait a minute, how many times did you place at Evo MvC2? Oh yeah none. So instead of being a “seasoned tournament player” we should call you an over seasoned pot monster. You’re salty over a bunch of shit that nobody really gives two fucks about.
Because the thing is that while MvC3 has easy ass combos, most of the real killer shit has a bunch of links. It happens this way because there is a stupid argument between people who want shit to be approachable for new people and the assholes who forget their jobs is to play a game and push it to the limit. Look at that fucking game. If you want to play Spencer you have to learn a bunch of fruity grapple links and if you play Zero your BnB now requires that you do multiple revered tiger kneed dragon punch motions. How are you gonna have the balls to say shit about that game now? The game may be easier but nobody mentions that a lot of us have been playing for a while. Therefore easy for us does not necessarily mean easy for the rest of the world.
But its whatever with you. Maybe just maybe, there is a big difference between Modok in MvC3 and Viper in SF4. Maybe there is a huge difference between the Mishimas having one Just Frame move and Alpha Patroklos having seven. Maybe just maybe you should be addressing arguments instead of saying stupid shit.
Right now there is no difference between you and all the cocksuckers who really make SRK bad. Essentially you are just like Sirlin: you’ll only listen to opinions that make you happy as opposed to looking at the arguments. Both of you are sides of the same coin. You’re hard dicked want of something make you both so damn deaf you can’t reconcile anything. Every time we don’t address an argument properly we make this shit shittier. Every time somebody new comes along and we don’t educate them properly we make this shittier. All the people who don’t listen, be them new or old, makes this place shittier. There is a huge difference between high level play and low level play but we aren’t really discussing that properly.
But please continue. I mean we all respect you so hard. Wait let me see that hard bodied execution of yours:
[media=youtube]qqDLutfCZKY[/media]
Did you just randomly call an assist while getting pressured? Were you doing shitty blockstrings with Strider? Did you just cling to that MOTHERFUCKING WALL? The great thing about that wall cling is that we have some people who might lobbied to have shit like that looked at before the game shipped. You know those scrubs that you hate so much? They are the ones would like to make it so that you don’t have to suffer from bad decisions.
But who cares because it isn’t at all like there are more points of view than your intellectual desolation you bring to the table, right?
that the game has some though execution requirements at high level play doesn’t mean that the game is really high execution, or it has many execution barriers, all of that was emergent, due how open was the combo system and how lenient was on the damage scaling/proration (i don’t know what it use) and the fail safes on the combo system, the game ended complicated, yes but its also very easy to get into it
the game is in fact very easy to play and very accessible, since it doesn’t have complicated moves, and all the links happen to be a natural occurrence and not like what happened with SF4
as i have pointed in all the other threads about this subject, the real problem comes that everyone wants to be able to do what they see the tournaments player do, but they don’t want to invest the time for it, and that if they are not able to pull all of these awesome combos, moves, etc they can’t enjoy the game
See I don’t believe that’s particularly true, at least not with regards to the folks that usually take part in these discussions (I’m sure there are plenty of folks out there like that).
The conversation is a lot deeper than just ‘people want the rewards with no effort!’ It’s about the kind of effort the games demand of their players.
the thing is that at the end every fucker on this thread likes to take only one side, and not accept that there are a good middle grounds, and that when a game takes it to an extrem or another, we should not demonize it.
after all the good thing of having different options is that we can find something that we like
fighting games will always take some execution, the more open the combo system the game would inevitable become more harder to play, specially because in some way or another there would be new links discovered, new ways for the moves to be inputed, etc, etc
it also doesn’t help that everyone feels like a game designer and see whatever that they don’t like as bad design/ or want that every game pays alike and cater to their taste
in other words
estos threads nunca consiguen nada mas que ser una bella y hermosa masiva tormenta de mierda donde todos se comportan como monos enajenados, cualquier buen punto se pierde en toda la mierda que todos estos pendejos postean
Mira cabron, lee lo que escribi denuevo para que entiendas que soy el que esta entre medio de todos. Estoy tan el medio que todos me chingan la jodia vida.
lo se culero, se que estas en medio, lo mismo que yo, nunca dije que tu opinion fuera diferente, por eso digo ellos, y no ustedes, de esa forma te excluyo de el conjunto cuando hablo, por eso digo que cualquier buena opinion se pierde en el tumulto de mierda que ellos postean
o sea, segui tu consejo y lee lo que yo escribi de nuevo cabron,
Rewarding time invested is probably the main crux of the argument of execution vs. strategy. I’m perfectly fine with combo grinding, as long as the system encourages interactions between players and not 100% combos (emphasis on resets, okizeme, burst, stuff like that), and has a way of scaling combos from easy -> hard. Of course, given how flexible some combo systems get, a game could eventually get to the point of 100% combos and whatnot, but that’s something that can be alleviated by better testing. The point is, it lets players with worse execution scale up their game with a much more visible level of progression.
I’ve done my spiel on motions in other topics, but as a small comparison, the visible level of progression on a motion is much more binary. You either get the 360 motion without a jump, or you don’t. You either get a DP or you don’t. There’s no middle ground. There’s no organic feedback from the game showing the player exactly where they’re failing in their execution. The only real way to get feedback on motion execution is to go into training mode and turn input display on. Players can get feedback on combo execution in actual play time against other opponents because it’s usually very obvious when the combo drops. The resolution of scaling from easy-hard is much finer in combos than it is on motions. With all that said, a lot of games wouldn’t survive without motions because they were created with that input time as part of its balance so its a necessary executional aspect. It doesn’t have to be though, and P4A is trying that out by giving Yu a two button DP.
if only all of this were true
this thread would be 15 pages shorter, and you wouldn’t be encouraging a debate that goes nowhere because its an endless circle of this shit, this other shit
if you people already acknowledged about a middle ground, then we wouldn’t have this garbagestic discussion of how much execution is good or bad, and if having some characters with some type of execution requirement is or not bad design
you wouldn’t be arguing about it pushing what you like as a fact, and neither would shoultz
3 threads ago you already admitted that you know that there is not a single game that pushes what you like to put on your theoretical game where there are so many execution barriers that no one is able to get in, you already admitted on this thread that sf4 is pretty much very easy to get into it, despite it has so many things that you loathe as execution barriers
so no, if people were already admitting that there is a middle ground and that usually all the games on the market try to get close to it, we wouldn’t keep seeing this without end discussion again and again and you would stop arguing with me on this subject because you would know that my opinion is simply to have a middle ground instead of pretending to read what i post and then go in a tangent
and more importantly you would stop with all this fanfiction of yours about the fighting game community
There’s effort you enjoy/find fulfilling and effort you put in because you feel that you have to.
The former is usually called ‘play’, and the latter is called ‘work’, and you usually do it because it pays the goddamn rent.
Lifting a 260 pound disabled man from his wheelchair and transferring him to the toilet takes a TON of effort, but it’s pretty far removed from going out and playing a game of soccer with your friends. Or maybe not, both take EFFORT after all.
you guys are ridiculous. people don’t want to accept they don’t like playing as much as they believe they do.
there are people who know that execution and practicing regularly contributes to becoming a better player and is important. then there are people who sit on srk forums, read the srk wiki, look up frame data, watch videos of skilled players, etc. and think they should be rewarded. well i’m sorry but if you choose to read about the game instead of playing it then you don’t really enjoy playing it all that much. becoming better will always be work for those people. nothing will change that.
effort is effort. your perspective makes it feel like work or not. so if its work i guess you like thinking about the game but not really playing.
Been over this, everything in this thread is opinions.
At least until we see some peer-reviewed studies up in this shit.
Also, you took that a weird place, for plenty of people its their job, and for a fair number of those people they have to keep doing it or they're homeless, whether they've given themselves a back injury or not. Do you 100% love everything about your work?
Oh wait, you're apparently 18, nevermind.
When you're an adult, there's plenty of shit you have to do that you hate... and plenty of things that are as hard, or harder, that you love to do.
Think of it like homework, but the punishment for not doing it is far far far worse than a bad grade.
Here's a good quote for you though
[quote]
I suspect it's a bit like fucking — which is fun only for amateurs.**Old whores don't do much giggling. Nothing is fun when you have to do it — over and over, again and again — or else you'll be evicted, and that gets old.**
[/quote]
(Hunter Thompson)
Work and play aren't actually the same thing, as much as it would be convenient for the argument that they were.
