That’s not even…fuck. This discussion could’ve gone so many different ways I feel like starting a new thread so the topic of execution could be discussed constructively.
“Execution” should be a natural response. An example of this could be as follows:
Rather than conceptualizing every step of the input required to arrive at the desired result, having flawless “execution” helps to facilitate the inclusion of strategy into your game-play techniques. This is the difference between thinking “I am going to punish this with a cl.hp -> 214 hk” or “I am going to go for a punish attempt using a damaging combo applicable to the situation.”
Another example could be as follows:
"Opponent is going for a low poke; I should press down to parry and then cr.hp … etc.“
or
"Opponent is going for a low poke; I will guess a low parry into a hit-confirmable low hp …”
tl;dr version
You need to have good or great execution in most fighting games before you can even begin to implement TDR and other strategies. Execution is the precursor to strategy.
My 2 cents.
yo what up boss lol
nah you know pkola, we only on dat marvel!! mike is good, working like a mad man these days.
I respect Shoultz opinion.
Good opinions don’t represent good players.
Good players represent good opinions.
how the fuck can we discuss execution constructively when everyone here is of different playing skill?
its like asking a year 1st year medical student and a 40 year vet in the profession is this cancer? the 1st year medical student can throw terms out and shit but never really explain the bulk. 40 year veteran in the field would be able to tell you if it was cancer, how far along it is, how it can be treated and probably refer you to a specialist.
its too hard to talk about topics because everyone credentials are fucked. I’m a known tournament player especially in my area\state so people know I can actually play pretty well. I don’t know you or xes’ background. For all I know, you’re the equivalent of a 1st year medical student and your opinions will never matchup to someone who’s been doing it in the profession for 40 years.
The only way to have constructive debates about this is to have people who actually play superior technical fighters because only people who play those games truly understand why the extra execution is there. Someone who only plays kof13 or sf4 can never understand what is “true” execution because by comparison, those games have nothing on mvc2. When someone in court debates an experts DNA testimony, they put up their own expert to debate the evidence. They’re roughly 2 professionals debating which is not the case here. I’m debating against people who barely understand fighting games where I’ve played 4-5 games @ a pretty high level already.
you and xes don’t have enough credentials IMO to have a valid opinion thats why these arguments never go well. Just because you post on srk doesn’t mean you actually know how to play.
Funny because I’m one of the few that seems to understand the issues presented in this thread from all the different perspectives. Considering that I also play with people of different skills, going from absolute beginners to people with really good execution, I have a better grasp of what a lot of these games look like from the perspective of people who just don’t play fighting games.
In not so many words: SHUT THE FUCK UP.
I think I play with a very varied amount of people as well, alas, opinion is opinion.
And I still can’t comprehend Xes’s point.
Being a good player is nearly worthless as a credential.
Like I said before, unless you have a real credential (which say Sirlin or MikeZ have with having made actual games, there are a very few other people out there that have real legit design credentials), it doesn’t matter who somebody is, or who they’re friends with for that matter. Their arguments can stand or fall on their own merit.
I have 3 basic responses to this.
[LIST]
[]At the center of this conflict is this sense that people think hard execution or required training mode are positive aspects of the game in and of themselves. If that’s wrong there’s a lot less conflict, then it’s just about finding the required line.
[]There needs to be careful consideration of the executional requirements of a move/technique as part of it’s design. It is up to the developers and playtesters to find that line though, that’s what they’re paid for.
[*]It’s all about managing the manner in which time is invested. Under the model I’m talking about, the primary way to improve your skill would be to play as many matches as possible with as strong opponents as you can manage… But you’re still (always) going to need to put in time. No matter what, that won’t change, improving skills is gonna take a time investment. It’s just a question of whether that time investment is ‘work’ or ‘play’.
[/LIST]
What are people so terrified of by giving new players the ability to execute what they actually want to do?? What are you expecting to happen exactly? That they start punishing all the unsafe stuff you’re throwing out or maybe reversalling/crushing your predictable pressure? Anti-airing your jump-ins when they guess you’re going to jump? This all sounds like playing the same game you’re able to, to me. I swear some people think of execution as some sort of safety net against being out-smarted by a ‘lesser’ player.
On a related note, out of all the people I would want designing a fighting game seasoned players would be pretty far down my list.
by discussing the topic itself instead of superfluous information about the posters like whether they play “superior technical” games or how skilled they are.
prove to me you guys aren’t garbage and I’ll accept an opinion. There is a massive difference between an expericened tournament player POV like mine and the opinion of xes who is just some forum troll that doesn’t even play. Not to mention that the people complaining about high execution requirements didn’t even play the most execution heavy game of all time for 10 years which I did so how can our opinions even be remotely close? w\e game you’re playing has NOTHING on mvc2 execution wise and its our experiences that create an opinion.
still waiting for xes to come back to me about that vsav challenge. He’s always talking on srk like he knows what he’s talking about and he’s already said he can play vsav. Lets see how good all that theory really is.
is that why you have written a book like daigo? or helped create strategy guides for the public?
oh wait you don’t. Its because they wanted someone who actually knew how to play as opposed to someone who thinks they know how to play.
being a good players is worthless as a credential my ass lol. You’re so full of shit its fucking funny. Is that why bad players get sponsorhips? oh wait they don’t!!!
and I see you dodging my challenge like a true bitch would too. You just want to post, you don’t play anything @ high level. Therefore, your opinion is probably garbage. Its no different than asking a 1st year medical student and a veteran in the profession the same question. Its why our opinions are so vastly different because we’re of different skill levels. Its not a bad thing for it to be like as I’m sure there are players with stronger skill levels than myself but I’m not going around telling them they’re wrong w\o any time in the scene. Its preposterous to think that anyone would digest your opinion when there is no meat supporting your claims. Your claims are always your shit garbage non playing opinion every time and you pass it off as an experienced one
I want a seasoned player to make my game.
Thank you Mike Z.
Let me say it again, your skill is an absolutely worthless credential.
“Lets take this outside!” is a classic, if very gradeschool, method of conflict resolution. Only way this could have been better would be if you’d tried to make it a MM, for that special SRK touch. (would have been easy money too, there’s no question you’re better at playing than me)
In the specific case of your long dedication to MvC2, it actually clouds your judgement. You’re so dedicated to the game you’re a fan of, you see the way it is as the way all fighting games are supposed to be.
Anyways, I said that I used to play Vsav and I have always had a soft spot in my heart for it. Unfortunately, to be blunt, playing it means playing it on GGPO and being around you more, neither of which I’m willing to do at this point. Still, I’ll gladly grant you, you’d annihilate me. There’s not even any question in anybody’s mind about that.
But that kind of brings us full circle, your skill at Vampire or MvC2 means exactly Jack and Shit.
Seriously though, you're basically saying "MvC2 is super hard execution and I love it and I'm good for it so you guys don't know what you're talking about!" Get outside your own head and your own fandom man.
Edit: And we're at the escalation phase. I spent all morning taking care of the fact that my car was robbed and my mail was stolen Shoultz, and I'm really not in the mood to deal with your shit right now. Why don't we take 5, and we'll come back when I feel like I can respond to your baiting without calling you a retard.And that nigga made moves easier to do and combos slightly harder to do. Ain’t that some shit?
It’s a little different than that.
It’s more of “these two martial artists are talking about which is better, physique, or technique, one requests to settle it over a match, another says that talking about it is ideal”.
To be honest, in my 10 years of studying fighting, I have never seen anyone have that discussion and not want to settle it with a live match.
Nope, it’s how you preach about it 
Also this isn’t directed at you but I like how people misconstrued that article, especially the troll who brought up ST damage. That’s a cute comparison considering you can’t convert into a big combo off as nearly as many tools as you can in Tekken.
Going back to the real discussion since I’m drunk and bored, something people haven’t brought up enough is the extra satisfaction in reaping the rewards of practice (That you CHOSE to engage in, not forced at gunpoint). It’s far more organic than the mechanical grind of RPGs in that it’s tied to your skill and/or dedication, not merely pressing a correct sequence of buttons (Even though technically that’s mostly what people practice in training mode). Nobody’s created equal, between the guys who doesn’t have enough time anymore for these shitty new games, those poor bastards who grinds in training mode all day to no avail since their basics are garbage, and the dudes who have been playing FGs in general a while and can pick up new ones with relatively little difficulty, but that’s something that’s universal to real competition.
Also, this may sound shallow but it gives people something to DO, because sometimes some people can’t or don’t want to just play play play play play all day with people. Finding things is neat, as is working on literally whatever you want within the confines of training mode at your on pace and solely on your own time. Giving people things to discover, utilize, and share with others helps extend the life of games in general.
It’s easy to talk about a magical game that everybody can pick up and enjoy but still has depth and somehow appeals to everybody and will last the next 15 years… but there’s very blurry and jagged lines in making a game accessible without sacrificing other aspects.
tl:dr i need more #9
this thread is what i expected
pure garbage lol
Dude, its 2 in the afternoon here! I hope you’re in the UK or something ><
On your point, its a good one, some people do just really enjoy practicemode. Once again its a balance between giving those people what they want and not forcing it (or effectively forcing it) on people who want to improve via playing.
I could make an argument that you should balance away from enforced practicemode (because I’m pretty sure many more people dislike it than like it), but hell… I’m totally willing to admit that it enhances the game for some folks (a point I wasn’t good at expressing much earlier).
no, you’re wrong because those are technical games and mvc2 is the most technical game to be played in tournaments by far. if there is 1 person in this thread that understands high level execution, its going to be me. I played both of those games @ high level, I understand the executional aspects of this argument probably better than anyone else because of the games I’ve played. Its why I keep bring up vsav\mvc2, to prove to people that I understand high level execution and the people who’ve played me in those games also realize I know what I’m talking about.
Since you didn’t play those execution heavy games, how can our opinions even be remotely close and how can yours even be close to remotely right? You have no technical game background so how can you say what is technical and what isn’t? I sure as fuck can because I’ve played the hardest one ever along with the simple ones. I actually know whats technical and what isn’t where as perspective is going to fuck up most players in this thread like 3s yun. He’s technical within 3s but he’s below average in mvc2 technically speaking. If all you’ve played is 3s, games like mvc2 seems to have “artificial barriers” but if you played mvc2, there is no such thing as an “artificial barrier”
its why you guys can’t grasp what I’m saying, we’re on 2 different playing levels. I’m sure of it