Strategy vs Execution: Where do you stand?

Don’t listen to Schoultz, he really really hates me and makes it an avocation to put anything I say in the worst possible light.

About this, yeah I said that too (about why the actions are the way they are). I don’t think SPD for instance was designed with its difficulty to do standing in mind at all, but it’s become an important factor in how the move is used. A lot of the execution we do have is incidental to those original decisions (just like difficult links which famously started as a glitch).

The other thing is, is you’re the one who brought up Akira. I never said I thought he was too hard, and in fact didn’t mention him at all (or VF even as far as I remember this thread). The only thing I had to say about him was making fun of the idea that they made him hard to use on purpose, which we agree probably isn’t the case.

 
And you're right, actual cases of what I'm talking about are very very rare.  Still, this whole discussion is and has been pretty much about abstract values from the start.
 
[LIST]
[*]Everybody knows that games take both strategy and execution to use
[*]Everybody knows there's various levels of execution required by games, and that that's unavoidable.
[*]Everybody knows that some people enjoy practice mode grinding on its own
[*]Everybody knows the Dice are loaded
[*]Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed
[*]Everybody knows that the war is over
[*]Everybody knows the good guys lost
[*]Everybody knows the fight was fixed
[*]The poor stay poor and the rich get rich
[*]That's how it goes
[*]Everybody knows.
[/LIST]

How are weaker players overcoming experts at Tekken Tag 2 now? If the experts are so pro, how about they learn to BLOCK and stop getting hit? Isn’t that what you guys always tell us “scrubs”?

Oh and also the irony here at the people on the execution side losing their shit over this. Defending execution as if it were the holy grail, despite the fact that by doing so they’re actually indirectly claiming that fighting games are so braindead stupid, that if you make moves and shit easier to do, then anyone can compete with pros. Like this Tekken post I quoted LOL

-If execution being made easier makes it where “scrubs” can compete with pros, then either fighting games are dumb as shit and not the “bouts of wits and strategy” like you guys comparing these games to chess keep claiming(or the pros aren’t that good and wasted years of their lives training only to realize the controls were why they won, not being good)

-If execution being made easier doesn’t make it where scrubs can compete with pros, what’s the problem then? Oh wait, I know

“B-b-b-b-but I spent soooooooooooooooo LONG learning all this stuff, how dare a game let other people not suffer as I did, fucking BULLSHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT!”

So which is it, are fighting games dumb as shit and not nearly as strategic and mentally demanding as you say, or are you just angry at the idea that someone can get to the actual game sooner while you were stuck grinding for god knows how long and you find it unfair?

What is it you angry neanderthals!? By the way I didn’t just register an account just to type out this diatribe.

Yeah, much better if you just hang around a forum trolling endlessly for years with every single post, that’s the way to do it!

I read that Tekken article too and was thinking the same thing. That guy sounds like a scrub and if anyone else were to say that shit on a forum they would get called out and flamed for it.

It doesn’t make sense what he is saying. the damage is too high so now experts may lose? LOL. gtfo and play Super Turbo. Fucking asshole tekken player and his “high damage” complaints.

How exactly does high damage make poor players better? The person interviewing him should have pressed him on that question.

Kind of lost focus there for a minute.

Anyways, I don’t get being afraid that bad players will beat good players. If you’re losing to somebody that sucks, the problem likely isn’t the game.

Sent from my Radar 4G using Board Express

It’s interesting you mention Akira Yuki because VF5FS requires little as far as execution goes (except for some characters like Akira) and 90% strategy/yomi.

I really wonder why so many people hate when you post about FGs.

I don’t know if you actually PLAY Tekken, but it’s WAY easier to get hit with a launcher in Tekken than it is to get hit with a big thing in most 2D games. (Other than Marvel where almost EVERY hit can lead to a dead character.)
And for that reason the juggle damage is a delicate balancing issue. (Which, in the case of later Tekkens, gets too strong and turns the game into more defensive and removes the emphasis from poking and other aspects.)

This also has nothing to do with this thread at all.

The Tekken complaint is an interesting one.

The problem as I interpret what the guy being interviewed says is that the reward for a correct read (the juggle combo off a juggle) is too high. This means that less reads are necessary to win a round. If less reads are necessary to win a round, then that means there’s a slightly higher chance that the worse player can get through on a dumb luck with a read.

If a player has a 10% chance to win on a read on dumb luck alone and only 1 read is necessary to win a round, then that means that the player has a 10% chance of winning, even if he or she is a crappy player. But if 5 reads are needed, all of a sudden, that 10% chance on each read means that the player only has a .001% chance of winning on dumb luck.

There’s a parallel here with MvC3. Level 3 X-Factor usually reduces the game down to three (often two if it’s used as a guard cancel) reads when it’s 1v3. The player with X-Factor only has to make several correct reads (closer to guesses) on which way his opponent will block in order to win the game. However, the player that’s gotten that huge advantage by turning the game into the 1v3 in the first place probably had to make a lot more than two reads in order to get the game in that situation. X-Factor allows the player that’s behind to force the game into two or three guesses, which is just pretty nuts.

And this is why tournaments have best 2 out of 3, or even 3 out of 5 double elimination. To increase the number of reads necessary to win the match to avoid being randomed out.

However, having high execution requirements does not solve the problem of being randomed out. It simply means that the problem is less apparent to players who are not very good because they cannot capitalize on their reads to the full extent possible. However, once they reach the execution requirements necessary to capitalize on their reads, then the game just has the same problems as if it didn’t have those high requirements in the first place.

This is not to say execution has no place, it’s just that in the situation where a game (round, match, set, etc.) can be decided on a very small number of correct reads, creating an execution barrier to force players to spend time training in order to capitalize on those reads does not actually make the game better.

Because I don’t belong to the right church.

well
you are assuming that the majority that favor execution are saying this…
they arent
this also assumes again that every character takes higher execution
they dont
i could care less that other people arent suffering playing other characters that have a ease of use
i play a viper, a akira, a alpha pat for the benefits they bring to the match and cause i like playing as the character
its as simple as that

that article has more to do with damage then with execution which is hard to modify in tekken at the end of the day you cant please everybody

How many accounts so far? I stopped counting after the last execution thread. This shit is just sad.

No its just that its easier to make mistakes in Tag 2. That coupled with the damage in the game leaves more windows of opportunity for the poorer player to win.

credentials kind of matter when your opinion is to be taken and you don’t have credentials.

its like putting a DNA expert on the stand. A majority of the time, they ask the doctor their credentials and they start listing shit off. Where they graduated, what they graduated with, how long have they been in the field, how many cases have the worked etc… those are references to tell people, hey this person has been around this crap a long time and they must know a good bit about what they do.

you don’t play fighters nor have you actually shown anyone you can actually play so to me, you’re just some idiot who wants to “debate” logical fallacies rather than talking about the core of the games which you know nothing about because you can’t play.

to have a good opinion 99.9% of the time, you just have to be a good player and even then good players can still be wrong. Its why I can’t take your shit opinion @ all, because I know you can’t play any fighter @ a decent level.

most people on here know me as a tournament player and some others know me from GGPO. I’ve shown multiple people in multiple games that I’m actually a good player. I have credentials to back up my opinion and it just urks me when you can discredit everything I try to say and you have no credentials yourself.

you play vsav right? lets play vsav on GGPO later on and lets see how much you really know about fighters rather than trying to convince people through text.

That whole premise is flawed though. If its easier to make mistakes, its easier for the poorer player to make more mistakes.

This kind of thing comes up weirdly often, and I just don’t get the combination of being deeply emotionally tied to winning along with deep anxiety that you’ll lose.

It’s one step up from “This stick doesn’t work right!”

credentials kind of matter when your opinion is to be taken and you don’t have credentials.

its like putting a DNA expert on the stand. A majority of the time, they ask the doctor their credentials and they start listing shit off. Where they graduated, what they graduated with, how long have they been in the field, how many cases have the worked etc… those are references to tell people, hey this person has been around this crap a long time and they must know a good bit about what they do.

you don’t play fighters nor have you actually shown anyone you can actually play so to me, you’re just some idiot who wants to “debate” logical fallacies rather than talking about the core of the games which you know nothing about because you can’t play.

to have a good opinion 99.9% of the time, you just have to be a good player and even then good players can still be wrong. Its why I can’t take your shit opinion @ all, because I know you can’t play any fighter @ a decent level.

Paul wassup u gonna b on persona? Whats mixon been up to? Oh yeah strategy btw…

execution and strategy take practice and experience.

any lines you draw to make it easier execution wise are arbitrary.
the games are fine and playable. they are an investment of time. that shouldn’t change. part of that investment if mastering controls. true of any game except something turn based.

you will never find this ideal balance you all seek. it doesn’t exist. people will always be left out because they aren’t interested in putting in the time. I think MMORPGs are awesome but i am left out because i never invest the time required to really get anywhere. that isn’t the game’s fault. it’s mine. the game isn’t really for me. i can either accept that and enjoy it how i enjoy it. or i can complain about it and ask for the game to be less of a commitment. which none of the people who do play the game as it is want.

so why isn’t that ok? why can’t people just accept they aren’t as interested in investing the time.

I want to get bodied in Vasv by Shoultz.