Assuming that I don’t work because I’m 18?
That’s…I don’t even…
And no, there’s a difference between opinions and what’s tested.
Think of Shoultz’ opinion as a theory, it’s been tested in environments, and come out the other side.
Think of your opinion as some weird uneducated guess, because it’s never been reviewed, like, ever.
How about YOU shut the fuck up and leave, and take your girlfriend hecatom with you? How is it other people in this thread can argue back and forth with xes like normal adults, yet you two in the peanut gallery just can’t resist hurling insults any chance you get? Especially Hecatom with his multiple accounts(yes I realize the irony so don’t even start motherfucker) made entirely to go into random threads insulting anyone who says shit about games he doesn’t like? Figures you two would be up each other’s asses as usual, maybe if you got done sucking each other off you can have a legit discussion instead of crying endlesssly about how evil old xes ruined SRK and the FGC(as if it wasn’t ruined LONG before that). You two are actually why this site sucks shit now, you and people like you. Back in the day we used to have real discussions and anytime some dumbass clownshoes like you would have tried to start some shit you’d have gotten flamed the fuck off the forum. Thanks to this new 09’er policy of having to fake being nice to retards, this site has to cater to assmunches like you while you manage to somehow skirt by just enough to never get infracted or banned. It’s hilarious really.
Honestly, it’s like I said earlier, the real problem is these people like shoultz who think so highly of themselves, yet seem to think if a fighting game has easier inputs so anyone can start off playing the game, it’ll somehow make it where these people will start beating pros, which is fucking retarded. Seriously, no other fucking game does this shit, don’t even bring up shit like Quake or Gunz because that is EMERGENT Execution which is not the issue at hand. Of course you’ll get shit like that. If you played some fighting game and someone found out a character can cancel a dash into some other special move and it made it even better, well removing that would be dumb(unless it was honestly something extremely ridiculously broken and the developer does NOT want it in there). That isn’t the issue. It’s shit like you having to fiddle around to do basic fucking combos and moves that you NEED to even do shit to anyone which is where it gets retarded. Look at Dota and games similar to it, those games are highly reliant on strategy, and you can do all the shit you need to do to win. Butchers who get real good can cancel and curve their hooks, but the game doesn’t require fucking odd inputs just to do a simple damn hook that anyone NEEDS to play that character well. YOU can play Butcher perfectly fine without doing fancy hook tricks, those are extras that simply make you a better player. The game doesn’t punish you for just starting out, which is what these fighting games do tend to do to people.
And it’s just real funny seeing shoultz freaking out demanding matches online, as if being a good player makes you a good game designer, wtf? You can be a hardcore pro yet fucking suck at designing shit. And please don’t bring up Mike Z, because Mike Z is most likely someone who is good at games AND learned over time what things to do and not do when designing a game. You can’t just come on a forum, go “I mad at Capcom” and start making classics. And again, like I said before, if fighters require so much skill and are so much like chess and all that, what the fuck is the issue with making some shit easier so anyone can do it? You still have higher techniques(ie. the equivalent of say castling your king, and other techniques in chess which are not beginner’s stuff), just now anyone can do the basic shit needed to actually do something and play the game. Sorry man but if you lose to someone simply because they were now able to do the move whereas they couldn’t before due to arbitrary shit, then you suck at the game and most likely always did and just assumed you didn’t due to beating people who weren’t that good. It’s ok to not be as good as you think, I mean that happens in Dota a LOT actually, someone beats trash pub teams or ok people and then thinks they’re good. It happensshrugs
I think shoultz has been pretty much dealt with as far as this discussion goes, go check it out (I’m kind of surprised anyone woulds still reference him after that drubbing :p)
about the other kind of gotta apologize for that, like I mentioned its been a rough day, and the whole 'well I actually *like* to help people' bit kind of irked me :p
Still, this is a lot like the sport practice thing from yesterday, I think people are going to pretty weird simplifications for the sake of having a stronger position.
The ideas you guys have about work seem pretty well... (and I hate repeating myself) simplistic.
It’s absolutely great that some folks enjoy practice mode, but requiring a lot of practice mode isn’t one of the core concepts of fighting games, and you can’t generalize personal taste too far. This thread shows that plenty of people don’t enjoy it that much, and the poll up top has been shockingly consistent in showing that a solid 3:1 margin of people feel that in the end strategy (which I generalize to the mental game) should be emphasized over execution when push comes to shove.
What few numbers we have tend to support my position. (no 146 people isn’t a very good sample, but the way the ratio has stayed steady is interesting in and of itself)
Why does almost every FGD thread end up with people arguing back n forth & in circles with Xesaie.
Theres been strong points made in this thread but people bringing up the same conflicts.
Round n Round.
Well its usually the same people, so if you ignore what Hecatom, Jed, and Shoultz say to me, and what I say to them, you can have a semblance of a real conversation.
It is interesting though, I don't know if its how its phrased or what, but opinions are definitely changing on this subject. More than a few people came down on sides I never would have expected.No ones opinions are changing, people are actully fuckign saying what they mean, not being total dicks about it, and people are actually reading now after the thread went to total shit. Shits weird.
Outside of the usual peanut gallery that sees red anytime xes postscoughHecatomcough, it’s largely because the topic questions something in this community that was always seen as one of those “that’s just the way it is” things. I saw people here fighting that I NEVER would have imagined, simply due to the sides being taken. Me personally, my side is somewhere in the middle. I don’t think all games need to end up doing what Smash Bros did(ie. special moves all being a direction and a button), but I don’t think shit needs to be some hardcore test of patience with people being forced to “hit da lab” just to do basic shit. The hilarity in all this is one of the perfect games imo was the Bloody Roar series(well, before 4, that one sucked sadly). I mean let’s see what did the game have.
I actually think Bloody Roar and similar games would be a good start in this genre, and wish more games were made that emulated what those did. It would help a lot, and the games would be deep enough if people opened their minds it would avoid the “OMFG scrub game” bullshit that gets thrown around so much.
Lord Raptor: Nah, I know what xes means. I admit I would have never imagined certain people leaning towards the sides that they did, I’m genuinely kind of shocked.
yea not really lol
all of guys have just been “talking” yet none of you are actually “playing”. Wait till I get a chance to play any of you fucks, you haven’t seen a drubbing yet.
just tired of arguing with idiots that can barely play. Differences in opinion come from player skill and experience. Kind of hard to have a good opinion if you can’t play the games. How am I supposed to explain the role of execution when you guys don’t play heavy to execute games? and if you play the heavy to execute games, you actually need to be able to execute in them. Not only that but you also need to play some slow games like ST\a2\sf4 to understand strategy.
this isn’t a topic that anyone can have a valid opinion on. You actually needed to play a combination of games @ high level to understand that execution is just as important as strategy because every game caters more to one than the other. Once you’ve played a few games where execution matters more and a few where strategy matters more, you get an epiphany about how all games are supposed to be played.
and I find it incredibly funny that I’m a proven player and I’m being discredited like my opinion shouldn’t count for shit where as xes thinks his opinion matters more for being a player that can’t even play. interwebs sure does make a lot of sense…
The only reason I don’t give your opinion credit, dear sir, is because you don’t have opinions, you have received truths.
Yours is the Scientology of fighting games.
Real talk, where have you been. Been waiting for that runback forever.
Hey, limb combat you must really hate Tekken cause your overzealous behavior sets a negative tone about it.
some people want to win by mostly pushing buttons
that’s okay
This is saving me a killing in library late fees. Don’t need books when I can just sit and read through this thread.
yes you are, and yes you can’t
Everyone who plays games has “authority” to comment on them. You do not have any more intrinsic authority than Xes, Limb Combat Troll, Lord_Raptor, my wife, the dudes at the local arcade (Southtown, in my area), or a kid who just picked up his first fighting game. These are all people who have expectations, valid concerns, and they all want something a little different. Optimally, we would hear all of these opinions and discuss design and competition like adults.
This, regrettably, is not the case. You and some other posters here are intent on bullying other members and reducing the conversation into a pissing contest. Instead of trying to understand WHY other people might come to different conclusions, you just whip out your e-peen and try to force people accept your perspective as the one legitimate truth. This approach damages the community and your own credibility, because why would I want to listen to someone who cannot abide dissenting opinions? Is your position that weak that you cannot fortify it with logic and empathy? All you and some others have contributed are weak HTML skills and unchecked rage, and that’s never going to persuade anyone.
I suppose my point is that I do not take your position seriously, Shoultz, because of how you present it. If you were a user in a play-test, I would delete your report without a second thought. If you were one of my QA guys, I’d fire you. If there is wisdom in what you say, I cannot see it, because it is overwhelmed by needless aggression and childish name-calling.
We’re discussing games here, not anything of great import. Developers hear unrealistic and silly ideas all the time. If Xes or Limb Guy have a zany opinion, rest assured that it will not influence game development and your hobby will survive another day. If you truly have a stronger argument, you need to calm down and try to persuade people to your position with substance, because the puffery and fury just isn’t getting the job done.
Are you saying my idea that fighting games would be better if they all featured marine invertebrates is zany?
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I disagree entirely with what Sirlin said about 1 frame links. We all know how links work (X move is plus N, Y move has N or less than N start up, and thus they combo), but I think a lot of people assume devs/programmers make them that way with specific combos in mind. Which in most cases isn’t true. Simply having plus frames on hit is going to allow links. Trying to remove 1 frame links would boil down to having program + frames on moves to never match up with any other (practical) move’s start up within that 1-2 frame window. Which is retarded IMO. Links will always happen. Players will decide whether or not using them is worthwhile.
That being said, I feel like Sakura is the worst example he could use to demonstrate. Firstly, he says
While, the part about not play Sak if you can’t tatsu loop is certainly true, executing a combo is not favored over decision making. How someone who has played as long as him could think that upsets me. If you don’t make good decisions, you won’t land the tatsu loop. That’s true of any combo, be it a difficult one, or some easy auto combo.
Secondly he says
The first sentence, IMO isn’t entirely a bad idea, but, in the case of SF4 Sakura, specifically, it is. ESPECIALLY, the bolded area. As a Sakura player who hasn’t any trouble with tatsu loops, I’d have to say that the execution level checks and balances itself. There’s absolutely no way that she should be given a 350-400 damage with amount of stun that it gives, and the mixup opportunities afterward for a few simple links to a two-in-one. The other way to “fix” the combo would be to simply buffing the plus frames on the tatsu, which I don’t agree with either. It would again, give her too bountiful a reward, for far less work, and more importantly, open up new 1-2 frame links, that would afford a better combo that would eventually take over as the standard for her, and we’d be back to square one.
IMO execution barriers have come to a point where it really isn’t THAT big of a deal anymore. We’re at a point where mild practice is all you need to be able to input the bare essentials (specials, supers, movements such as dash, air dashes etc), opposed to older games with far more rigid command interpreters. The added layer of execution for bigger, flashier combos is a privilege and not a right. Everyone has the right to play their games. But, you have to know your niche. If you know your execution isn’t at a level to play GGAC Eddie, but you want a top tier character then pick Testament. If you can play SF4 at a level where can open up the smart players, and your execution is good, then Sakura is probably a character for you.
To sum it up, one doesn’t really add TOO much to or from the other. Good execution doesn’t act as crutch to people with bad strategies, and if you’re good at making decisions, then you don’t really need too high of an execution level, if you’re playing the character that fits your game and your dexterity limits.
Didn’t basically everyone jump on James Chen’s case for the 1 frame link thing?
considering the supposed stated design philosophy of the game, i really don’t see why sf4 doesn’t have special-cancellable chainable lights or a normal input buffer like blazblue(5f window for any link at the very least) or kof13(2f for normals, 4f for specials)
Didn’t Ono or someone else from their team mention that 1 frame links were kept for the “hardcore players.”