you are mostly right
Its semantics and aesthetic value to some people.
For others though theres a small satisfaction in landing something that is inherently difficult. it lies in the entirety of the moment.
and with evolving the match with that “hard to do” move is more for my self then for the opponent.
Sure there are some things that you could fundamentally call pointless. certain one frame links come to mind because you could do bigger damage anyways doing much more simpler stuff.
a big example is if you ever played doa 4 theres a command throw called raijin. for how incredibly hard it is to do it isnt even the best throw in the game
i still stand by the notion that certain stuff that requires a heightened sense of execution is good if it increases the options and game of said character. the goal is winning but that doesnt mean that along the way you cant find satisfaction in doing certain stuff.
EWGF is a example of having something thats hard to do that makes sense design wise. good fast punisher/lancher thats safe on block, leads to bigger combo variations yadda yadda. Thats something that takes practice.
people also have to remember that most games now only have one to 2 types of that “high execution character” you have choices! no one is making you learn akira
I don’t understand why the FGC reveres players with good execution or why it holds games with strict execution barriers in such high regard. Execution is 5% skill (learning to make combos work) and the rest is nothing more than grinding out muscle memory with time. How has this become something so desirable?? Why would we promote dumb grinding over the numerous other aspects of FGs that one could excel in? My overall competitive success goes up when I spend less time playing the game and more time working on my execution, how does this not reek of some sort of design flaw?
Now, I’m not completely against the idea of a player increasing their overall damage through more advanced combos by spending time grinding execution, if that’s what they want to do. The problem is, execution doesn’t just come into play when it comes to doing damage, arbitrary execution hurdles are slapped in all sorts of fundamental places. Fighting games are predominantly based around frames and frame advantage/disadvantage. The games are balanced almost solely around this concept yet, to play this game of numbers I have to first perform frame perfect buttons inputs. To play the actual game, the game the designers designed I have to push a button with 1/60th of a second accuracy. Not to do anything fancy, to play the actual game. If I know my opponent is at a 4f disadvantage and I know I have a 4f move, why are you making me perform such ridiculous feats of dexterity just to follow the rules you’ve spent months tweaking and balancing!? I can’t think of many other genres of game where this wouldn’t be considered absurd.
I find it quite insulting to fighting games that people imply they couldn’t stand up on their strategy alone and that removing execution barriers would somehow make them worthless.
Well written novaroad pilot. Semantics is when one person says one thing, another person says another thing, but they’re actually saying the same thing? I’m pretty sure that’s it but I want to be positive.
Yeah and not competitive in any sense or form. (Granted it doesn’t matter because the Fan will make it competitive rather or not Sakurai gives a middle finger to them.)
He made smash easy to learn and play because from the beginning he wanted it to be a party game. He intentionally dumbed down Melee and removed numerous competieve aspects of Melee because he doesn’t it want to be competitive. He does not support his game being competitive, and he wants to COMPLETELY remove this aspect from in his franchise.
Sakurai views on Stategy and Execution is irrelevant in this topic, why in the world should Ono/Harada follow this man’s roots?
your argument focuses too much on combos. executing the right strategy under stress is more important. it’s not practiced by grinding but by experience. this type of execution is admireable and should not be looked down upon as useless or unnessecary.
You’re also wrong about fighting games being almost solely based on frame advantage and disadvantage. Hitboxes and distances are much more important in street fighter.
lol at using sakurai as a good example
what he did with brawl was just a bitch move period
eliminating most traces of competitive value and alienating the tournament fanbase just to appeal to a audience you already had acquired with melee is nothing short of terrible
frame adv/disadv won; t change with a buffer window. a buffer window would just allow you to input a move before it;s able to come out and makes sure that it comes out as soon as possible. when it’s possible is not affected by a buffer.
why would you want to demolish it anyways? things need to have an effect on block and hit. you can’t constantly leave things at neutral.
Honestly execution isn’t just doing combos and it’s not always just muscle memory after seeing you got a hitconfirm. I’m a broken record saying this because I’ve said it in some posts already but the ability to react and get out a proper action is execution and is probably the thing that separates a lot of players. They say Tomo could srk Bison if he tried to scissor kick on reaction at the start of the round. That’s purely reactive and not relying on strategy because not only do you have to see the move, but also input the command within the proper timing. Sure finishing your combos is good and all and eventually becomes 2nd nature. But doing something on reaction is also execution.
no, but his specific complaing of ‘having 1 frame to do the punish’ would, for the same reason that it would change that 1 frame link.
On the other thing, that wasn’t my point, I wasn’t making a claim on whether you should or not, I just was saying that it’s just about inherent to the genre.
But people aren’t objecting to all kinds of hard execution, but rather to arbitrarily hard execution or hard execution having intrinsic value. Doing something on reaction is kind of a weird example for this discussion anyways because it’s hard to effectively master in training mode, and its very high risk to try in actual play even if you’ve mostly got it down.
Err no it didn’t make any sense. Mishimas were always fondling the upper tiers because the technical tools they had were simply some of the most dominating in the series. (TTT1 being the most extreme case of this.)
Imbalance on purpose is bad no matter what the reasoning behind it is, even if it’s to reward hard execution.
Not going to respond to others who just repeat things that I already addressed in previous comments in the thread.
That’s just one example but the use for random guard in training mode is to practice your execution on hitconfirms and your awareness. If you see your move get blocked, you would go into a safe option or decide to not go into your followup, if you see it hit, then you can followup. Training mode is no substitute for actual play but some games at least have the options to set you up in the situations to know what to look for.
You can also set it to random counter hits and also have to keep an eye out for those. Counter hit followups are very important and finding when you get one can change the flow of a match really quick. Many people can try to practice watching out for things like that.
And you never actually refuted any of my arguments, so I logically concluded that you can’t.
What would that accomplish? If I was as good as Justin Wong would that make me right? If I was a loser who can’t FB to save his life would that make me wrong? But since it seems to mean so much to you, here’s my MVC2 online record. You could probably also search for my username in the leaderboards of most popular fighting games, if that kind of thing means anything to you. I have nothing to hide here.
I agree. That was an ill-advised pot-shot. I shouldn’t have made that comment.
I do. I haven’t posted yet because the thread looks like a hot mess. But if the fans call me back to the game I’ll make a post; I’m like Jay-Z, I just pretend I don’t want to do stuff but I really do.
