maybe back then
now you would be hard pressed to find anybody that thinks that any the mishimas are top tier in tekken 6 even with EWGF
series progess and while its a great move its not as dominant as it once was
sometimes even if something turns out to be a bit overpowered as a developer its good to sit on it and see how you can evolve the game.
Your abilities as a player are meaningless to me, and also meaningless to this thread. It’s only you who has an interest in my abilities as a player, which I actually find more hilarious than anything.
No one cares who either of you are honestly.
If you aren’t interrested in me as a player then why use terms that only relate to that and nothing else. And don’t be so butthurt about my observation, you came across as someone who simply does not want to work for it.
also, what did you prove with a screenshot?
You should take my position.
I don’t care who anyone is.
In terms of 3-D games, strategy outweighs execution. High-End combos don’t do very much when you’re getting killed by wake-ups. The also don’t help when you’re opponent can consistently whiff bait you and punish you.
I remember the first time I played Bloody Roar aka Beastorizer in the arcades. My friends and I had tirelessly been playing Soul Edge for the PS1 nonstop for god knows how long. My sense of backdashing and whiff punishing had gotten pretty good, and my judgement when it came to sidesteps was great.
I saw a guy slaughtering people in the arcade. He picked Yugo and was doing regular combos, and hyper beast combos. My first time playing the game, I crushed him. All I did was backdash and punish and side step and punish. My sidestep punish was mostly button mashing, but side stepping was broken in BR1 so it worked. This guy had way better execution than me. But his spacing was garbage, and he was predictable. He kept on trying to hit me with the same launcher to get off his crowd pleaser combos.
Actually dude, there’s a huge difference between a person’s reaction time and their ability to execute moves. Execution is the ability to consistently perform moves correctly. Reaction is the ability to respond to a situation. The former heavily relies on manual dexterity, while the latter is simply a fast voluntary response.
Now when you combine the two…top level reaction time with high level execution, you get a great player. The two aren’t the same thing. I’ve seen guys who play Tekken parry 20-23 frame lows on reaction. Only a handful of those guys have good enough execution to wave dash. y
I’m pretty sure Fulaani cares who I am. Makes me feel like a rock star.
Our conversation was always about me. Me! I don’t recall ever showing any interest in you. I sincerely apologize if I’d inadvertently given the impression that your skill (or lack of it) matters to me. I’m happy you are showing a lot of interest in me, though. By all means feel free to continue doing so. I’m always happy to discuss me. It’s a topic that I find most fascinating. But not you. I’m just not that into you.
I proved two things:
Wondering if anybody will come in and say you didn’t to deserve to win because the other guy had clearly put in more work.
I’m not saying just reaction. Many of us can see things like a startup of some move or poke. The most natural and easiest thing to do would be block because that entails holding back. But a player who is more confident and prepared could see the start of the move and try to stuff, which is much harder because you have to execute properly and before the time that you would get hit, sort of like the Tomo example. A person with lesser execution would be too slow and get hit or go with the safer but less rewarding option. So the speed and precision (because most of the time the more faster someone tries the do something, the higher chance they will mess up) at which you input a move is a factor and I definitely would consider that execution.
It also brings in mindgames and strategy once you start playing the player and seeing something like that happen. If they see you could execute something like that at will, would they try again just to make sure that’s not a fluke? Would they feint, then maybe sneak it in eventually? Or will they eventually go to plan 2?
I agree 100% that the speed and precision a person is able to input moves falls under the realm of execution. The ability to quickly determine when and where to apply that execution is reaction. That’s the difference is all I’m saying.
Personally I subscribe to the observe->strategize->execute paradigm discussed here:
Based on my understanding reaction falls more under “observe”, and is separate from both strategy and execution. I would be most interested in seeing your take on this (and also that of SixMachine).
I think really interesting is what happens after you execute, because both players repeat the process after seeing what happen. The thing is that both players only see what is executed while playing (unless somehow you are calling out your plan every step of the way). You infer what their strategy is by what just happened and you can guess what they are observing by what you think they are planning.If you think that they are not aware of something, then you can exploit that.
I guess an example of the paradigm is if a Chun in ST has full meter and is walking forward, then you can guess that they have the super stored and they are trying to observe if a button is pressed.
I do think execution actually helps create the strategy in the paradigm you wrote, because if you can infer what they know by what was executed then you can exploit a weakness that your opponent has. For example, if you know that he can see the scissor kick come out and blocks it but he has never srked you out of it, that could imply that he might have too slow of an execution to hit you out of it but he can see you do the move (though if something is seen many times in a row, there is preparation time to get ready for it so they might eventually do that srk when they think it’s coming out but you could feint it), meaning you can put more block pressure on him. And I think if you work in some way to mess with you opponent such as crossups to mess up their motion and charge, you can mess up their execution.
Now I know most of the talk in this thread is about combo execution, but I guess I’ve been thinking about execution in a general sense which would mean anything that requires an input, since even doing a regular move motion can be hard in some situations. But for combos there is a mindgame to it too. Once a combo starts there is usually nothing that can be done (except if the game has a burst or something). But if you know someone is not gonna go for a optimal damage combo because they would mess up or seem to gamble a lot, you can mentally prepare yourself beforehand for something like a reset or a setup. Or something like you know that the player has poor combo conversion off a certain situation, so you can probably be more risky in that area while preparing yourself for other areas of attack. Players seem to have different strategies when it comes to combos and that can give a player time to think a step ahead.
On a side note, I was thinking that what if the execution of something was as simple as a button press? Could there be a way this reduce the strategy by reducing the flaw in the player? I think that actually might be true to some extent. In the Tomo example, if the srk was one button, that would probably way more people can hit Bison out of his move. I’m pretty sure there are people out there who could probably see that the move is coming out but couldn’t execute that fast, but once that is changed that would always be the optimal thing to do for the player, which is a reaction test. It would seem that it would reduce the “playing against the player” (as in making reads and observations on them) aspect. Because reaction is natural and not everyone is born with the same reaction. Some people actually make strategies to read and guess what steps are ahead to get that pre-emptive srk, to make up for the lack of reactions. I would like to see what other people think on this idea.
But weight train, training the weight gives bigger muscles, girls like big muscles
girls don’t like big combo, how can you impress girl that way? You approach girl, what she care about more, big muscle, or big combo in game?
See, that why execution pointless, no help get girl, why bother, why should I care?
They want big sale, I give them tip on how to get big sale. Ono listen so far, add solo mode to TTT2, that way casual no have to learn play 2 char. 2 char too hard, much work, when use one char much easier, less work, more time for fun and girl and sake. My goal is all fight game designer listen to me, make game more about FUN less about work.
You like work so much, get job at oil rig, that much hard work, lot of execution real hard, just way you like it^__^
1- Dialogue/conversation
2- No, but id probably listen more closely to what you had to say because youd essentially be a celebrity to me (im as shallow as anybody)
3- No, but it would make you equal to me at losing
4- I dont know how i gave you the impression i do, but regardless, very impressive, i admire how much work it must have taken
5- That really wont be necessary, id have believed you without any proof, i have no reason not to
6- I see that, i will remember, may we every meet again, that i never need to wonder if you have anything to hide
that said, you clearly had ample ability to debate the point i was referring to, but all i meant was that in that post, you had not only not referenced said point at all, but you had instead suggested that he was an idiot who… whatever
i thought it was both a little mean and an indirect response, and i was happy to point it out
but i wasnt trying to get into your debate or question anything about you
No.
you want fighting games turn from this
to this.
In addition your company has created mechanics to prevent a superior player from winning even if the superior players outplays them.[URL=‘http://bitmob.com/articles/super-smash-bros-brawl-a-beloved-example-of-contemptuous-game-design’] Unlike Rage/Ultra/ X-Factor it’s completely design to be random. Regardless if you lower execution barrier, you are against a superior player winning by pure raw fundamentals.
I do like that model, because of it’s simple and straightforward nature.
Given that model, I believe you are right. Reaction would fall under the observation heading. However I don’t think reaction is quite as intellectual was what that list suggests. I say that because I know players with magnificent pattern identification skills, but average or poor reaction ability. In other words, people who can break wake-up patterns, but aren’t fast enough to react to certain lows. While punishing a blocked move on reaction does take fast response, I believe a more accurate way to measure reaction isn’t punishing a blocked move, but against mid/low mix-ups. The latter is a much more difficult skill, and a bit scarier to go against in a tournament setting.
I also feel that people overestimate their reaction ability and don’t distinguish it from the ability to guess and identify patterns. If I had to break down player skills I would break them down in the following manner
Concentration
Reaction
Observation
Spacing
Execution
Punishment
Originality
Rhythm
Experience
You’ll have to forgive me, if the list is a bit vague. It was born out of a discussion with a friend about how to train people to play (3-D)fighting games, and we were trying to make the distinction between skills which were easily developed and skills that weren’t.
Concentration is the ability to stay focused within a match. It’s the ability to play regardless of external distractions(which becomes very important within a tournament setting), as well as the ability to utilize one’s knowledge and technical within a match. When two equally skilled players are playing against each other the one who’s concentration breaks first (perhaps due to a strange set-up, or an untimely whiff) will almost always be the first to lose.
Reaction is the ability to quickly respond to an opponents moves, particularly their mid-low mix-ups. Players with high level of reaction ability do not have to guess as often as those with low level reaction ability. The average player can defend against a 27 frame mid-low mix-up on reaction. Someone with high level reaction can defend against 20-23 frame mid low mix-ups on reaction.
Observation is the ability to identify set-ups, simple patterns and recognize player mannerisms and habits. Players with high level observation skill often have an eye for detail. What strikes average players as minutia, strikes people with good observation as important details. Not to be confused with experience or rhythm.
Spacing is the understanding the range and hit boxes of a characters moves, as well as a characters various option at certain ranges relative to the opponent. Players with good spacing only use moves at their optimum range, whiff punish often and only miss when their opponent jumps/sidesteps/backdashes. Players with terrible spacing throw moves out at ranges where they can’t hit. They whiff moves without their opponent even evading.
Execution (or Technique) is the ability to consistently perform combos or movements that require strict timing and which often involve long and complex inputs. Players with high level execution are able to perform “just frame” moves consistently, and pull off long, high-end combos with little or no error. High level execution is largely a matter of manual dexterity.
Punishment is the ability to consistently capitalize on another players mistakes, whether it be a whiffed move, or a blocked combo. Though partially a product of reaction and experience, some players are far more proficient (and consistent)at punishing minor mistakes than others. Thus more opportunistic players will reap the benefits from punishing moves that have small risk associated with them, or more consistently punishing moves with larger risk. Players with high level punishment ability punish more moves than those who don’t.
Originality is simply uncommon responses to common situations. Originality is reflected in movement, combos, and various set-ups. Players with high levels of originality tend to play their character in a very unorthodox manner. Or players with high originality often use combos and set-ups that are unique or rarely seen. Original players can often go online and view match videos and see that either their combos, or tactics are not used by other players using the same characters.
Originality runs counter to experience. Player with highly distinctive play styles are often able to overwhelm experienced players who are used to a particular character only being played one way. Originality is also the ability to come up with creative responses to an opponent within a match. Thus a player with a high level of originality may be able to develop a strange set-up on the fly, or a distinctive counter to an unfamiliar tactic.
Players who are original in their tactics, may not necessarily be original in their move selection, or their combos. Some are original in all areas, and those players are difficult to overwhelm. However originality can be overcome by a player with a good sense of rhythm.
Rhythm is the ability to recognize an opponents sense of timing and flow, as well as the ability to alter one’s own rhythm. It is often misunderstood and lost under the blanket term of ‘adaptability’ but it is far more specific than that. Each player has their own rhythm, which is largely predicated by the moves they use.
Rhythm is different from pattern. Often players will get crushed in a match an not understand why. Their opponent will suddenly start hitting them with flashy, and often unsafe moves, and they will connect seemingly out of now where. This is because the opponent has discovered their rhythm. They may not understand exactly what move is coming next(pattern), but they understand when the next move is coming(rhythm). Players have an easy time consciously changing their pattern, but often have a difficult time consciously changing their rhythm.
In 3-D games, experienced players, whether novice or expert can have difficult with complete beginners who mash buttons. This is because a player who is randomly button mashing without any sense of what they are doing, has no set rhythm, and they cannot be read or anticipated. Players with a great sense of rhythm are adept at delaying and pausing to throw off their opponents timing.
Experience is knowledge gained through gameplay. Experience can be knowledge of set-ups, tactics, combos, character properties, match-ups, strengths, and weaknesses. Players who have played a wide variety of human opponents, or who have consistently played a smaller variety of highly skilled opponents tend to be more experienced. Most players gain experience through tournaments, and/or online, although there are players who are able to study their character without any outside opponents and develop new techniques and strategies. Experience allows a player to effectively deal with familiar tactics, that a less experienced player may be incapable of dealing with on the fly.
Experience is staple for all skilled players but it is not the same as skill. A more experienced player does not necessarily possess better execution, faster reaction, more originality, or any of the other skills mentioned. Of all skills, it is the easiest and most fundamental to develop.
I don’t think the list is perfect, but given the nature of the discussion my friend and I had, it was the easiest way to describe skills we’ve seen players implement at tournaments.
When I think of the blanket term “strategy” it encompasses Experience, Observation, Spacing, Originality, Rhythm, and Punishment…because "strategy is a matter of knowing how and when to apply these skills properly.
play an st shoto and dp claws jumps and tell me reaction is seperate from execution.
also, edit lol whatever dudes.
I have just okay execution so I heavily rely on strategy to win. Both are important but it’s best to play to your strengths.
Any facet of a game that promotes one player performing better than another as a result of physical dexterity should be redesigned from the ground up so that I and my fellow “braingamers”, as I like to call them, can compete at the highest level in addition to Daigo “The Beast” Umehara and 13 year olds that drink a lot of soda.