Firstly, it seems obscenely easy to contain a toss player. Like, none of their units have enough manliness to punch through anything (except maybe immortals, but they get wtfpwned by tier 1 units).
Toss seems much more fragile than they used to be and are easily surrounded and overpowered. Like, you put them in an open field and they’re screwed. It seems like both Terran and Zerg are easy to mass units with and they can be solid, but protoss requires a lot of shenanigans just to hold off an advance.
I dunno. I guess this 4 part series can better illustrate my point. This protoss player is good and the zerg player wasn’t that great (could’ve ended the game at multiple points), but there was just no way to break out:
Sure it’s harder to control the map with toss if you compare them to zerg, but map control for zerg is often a necessity… a zerg thats behind in reources is typically losing
That’s why toss gets crazy stuff like psi storm to help thin out zerg’s numbers
dude , thors are like the mammoth tank or the apocalypse tank from the Red alert series . i watched video of korean match , some terran players massing thors .
dude , thors are like the mammoth tank or the apocalypse tank from the Red alert series . i watched video of korean match , some terran players massing thors .
Except that it doesn’t? There’s a word that comes to mind when I think about psi storm: “impotent.”
The damage is pitiful and the area of coverage is weak. Psi storm used to cook any units that didn’t move out of the way with a single cast. Now Hydras can just hang out under them and giggle at the tickle feelings.
Map control is what wins games, just like chess. Zerg and terran can do this with solid units whereas protoss are consistently having to rely on shenanigans that aren’t effective as anything but a mild annoyance.
Potential Solution?: Up the general manliness of toss units to be tougher in general and/or lower unit costs.
This i agree with. Although psi storm is still good it just not as threatening as it was in SC1, and in late game like the video you showed theres nothing a toss can do. Zerg units just overwhelm and laugh at psi storm while continue going in, where as in SC1 zergs and even terren has to micro around that. What worst is that they even reduced the AOE in the newer patchs (i believe).
In that match up you posted, the toss player didnt go for a standard build and went for void ray cheese. Had he went standard and pushed stronger in the beginning he might slowed the zerg down and have the outcome changed.
Should probably rely less on shenanigans and more on just getting more stuff. The way stuff is designed now, Protoss really need to abuse warp-in to reinforce, more-so than in SCBW. That’s why Warp In is suggested along with placing a trail of pylons to continuously make sure your reinforcements come in as close as possible. Psi Storm isn’t the game changer it used to be, but it’s still far from useless.
Recent patch nerfed Hydra health from 90 to 80 meaning a full Psi Storm hit kills a Hydra. Even though the radius of the Psi-Storm feels smaller, it’s actually similar in how many units it can hit. Units bunch up much more in SC2 and plus, if your opponent is just chilling under storms and still running you over, they’re probably out-resourcing you or are producing much more units than you with the same amount of resources. If they move out of the Storm’s area of attack, that’s time they’re not attacking. Marauders are the only other units that might give you a problem since Terran players love to mass M&M now against everybody in general and like it or not, Templars still do help even if they don’t kill.
The only problem I feel like SC2 has is that it feels like as Terran/Zerg you are perfectly capable off 2 bases. Before It used to be Zerg > Protoss > Terran in terms of bases needed, but now it’s more like Protoss > Terran/Zerg. It’s a bit odd, but Protoss needs to be more aggressive in taking expansions and controlling how many expos the opponent can have. Protoss still have powerful tools and Blizzard is still taking steps in nerfing units that are part of certain overpowered strategies. Roach into Hydralisk domination isn’t exactly great balance if players feel like it’s so easy to just stay there since there’s no need to tech to hive to get Lurkers and Ultras and that’s why you see them get nerfed.
I just want to see SC2 go back to base philosophies, meaning however many bases the opponent has gives you a good idea of what strategies they can perform. Right now it feels like any viable strategy is done off 2 bases and it really only goes further if both players are just being passive and trying to hit expos while building up large armies that aren’t used to kill each other with until 8+ minutes pass by.
Edit: Just as a side note, Starcraft 2 has way too many beefy units and not enough units that do that monster Reaver type damage. Since smart-casting is an issue in Blizzard’s eyes, they needed to nerf those mega spells like Psi Storm, but then they buff weird stuff like E.M.P., probably as a test. There are a lot of things that are more down to just players not being good enough yet in most cases, but there are also obvious problems in the balance still, but we still have a target window of 3 months before Blizzard wants to hopefully release SC2 and start making some damn money off this horse.
Void Ray cheese seems to be the thing to do against zerg. That’s frickin’ TLO (arguably the best SC2 player right now) and he still had to work his ass off.
Early void rays isn’t so much cheese as it is sound play against Zerg. I’m a toss player, and what I’ve found is you have to take out zerg early (or at least cripple them enough) to stand a chance. Early void rays are awesome for this, if they go for the standard roach tech then you basically won. Even if you don’t go void ray, it forces zerg into Hydras much faster now (and hydras are now a 2 food unit, like zealots) just to prevent something like that from working, leaving you the ability to go into immortals and then colossus instead. Since in order to get to hydras they need to fast expand, you can push in and disrupt them really good early. Once you get to late mid game and beyond, toss doesn’t stand much of a chance between brood lords, hydras and lings.
I do think they have nerfed toss a bit much for my taste, however, and hopefully they give them a little buff by launch time.
Edit: I didn’t realize the latest void ray change made them take out queens 1v1. thats a huge buff.
Thats the problem with toss right now, majority of toss victories over the zergs must be done early to mid game, else they dont stand a chance if it gets to late. Whereas in SC1, it didnt matter which stage of the game it was toss had answers, and psi storm/reavers could combat late game zerg masses. Either side had a fairly similar chance of winning. Futhermore, a 2 base toss with goons and zelots could punch through 3-4 base zerg.
This newer void ray build against zerg just doesnt do it for me. Its such a disadvantage to toss if it fails. In order to have this work, the toss player is doing so obvious block in with zelots and cannon (warning flag #1), and a good zerg player sends in a suicide OL to scout for this. If they notice this shenanigans they load up on hydras, while toss has what, zelots and void ray? Zerg can camp outside your base with tier 2 units already and expand for free. This build looks like a poor mans version of the Bisu build in SC1 just not as solid.
Hello… are we even playing the same game??? Thats the definition of the zerg.
shrug I’m watching some fairly recent Korean reps and Protoss seems to be in okay shape. Fast immortal push or fast void rays are pretty hard to defend (especially that 9 minute immortal rush, ugh). If it gets to late game and Protoss hasn’t done much damage to Zerg, then yeah they’re in bad shape but that’s less a problem with Protoss and more a problem with Zerg macro running wild.
And Protoss isn’t exactly suffering against Terran either, what with Immortals shutting down the entire factory tree of units and the old Marauder rush nerfed out of the game. Just play with your unit compositions if you are having some strange problem of Protoss units not being beefy enough. Throw down some Guardian Shields or something.
shrug just download Korean tournament reps, not the hardest thing to find
Damage pitiful? I wouldn’t say that. It acutally does damage faster than it did in SC1, just less damage overall
The video he showed was a Protoss player doing little to no damage to the Zerg for the great majority of the game. The game was over long before it was “over”, the Zerg player just didn’t end it.
That wasn’t a true “late game” with two opponents in good condition. That was a formality after the Zerg had already won. I think that Toss actually has a very strong late game against Zerg… as the game goes on it’s Zerg who gets weaker, in my opinion… against a non crippled opponent. This Protoss was crippled by containment, not really a good example of true late game PvZ
I’m pretty sure one psi storm still does not kill a Hydra, because of Zerg’s regeneration it should survive with about 1 HP, meaning it will take an additional hit to finish the Hydralisk
If they’re containing you with cannons, one base zerg is still dangerous. Turtle up with a minimum amount of defense required, and fast tech to Spire. Since Protoss will be behind on tech, you can just build mutas and rape them. Since they cannon rushed you, they won’t have much money to defend or even expand to their nat without severly crippling themselves.
[media=youtube]V1x74p_X4RA&feature=related[/media]
Heres Headofstate, a pretty decent toss player, and both player being in good condition in late game. Toss went for a pretty standard build (zelot pressure, stalkers, then colussus), while zerg went roaches, then hydra. In the end, zerg out expanded and massed him. Check out the 5min mark of the video, he did everything he could to hold off the swarm (psi storm, shield block, 6-8 colussus) and the zerg just trampled in. SO dont tell me that if the zerg are just chilling under the psi storm, the toss player is underdeveloped or out resource because thats full of bs. Unless toss players ends a pvz match within the first 15 mins, hes got no chance after that.
Whoever said that that about chilling under the psi storm has a point. If it’s gotten to the point where you no longer care about your units, its probably because you already won and it’s gotten to the point where macro is far more important than micro, which usually means the game is about to end
I think a more real Protoss problem right now is with midgame-late game Mutalisks, but no one’s talking about those right now so whatever
I’m curious, are you actually playing the beta or just watching vids? Because if you actually play we should just get some games in, battling it out is the only manly way to settle a Starcraft argument!
