Z v T: Current situation and comparison to BW
This thread on teamliquid sums everything up very nicely… (minus my static defense point), which I’ll try and post on liquid.
I know mass statid defenses are bad, but nothing is wrong with having 1/2 early. The protoss can do it, where 1 cannon effectively can hold you off (zerg). A couple turrets in a terrans base will make you think twice about EARLY/MID/LATE scv harass. And they (p/t) don’t have to sacrifice a unit to do so. It’s just to expensive to have spine crawlers early for the zerg. It’s pointless, because once your opponent sees you have this, they can act accordingly (because they are hanging out in your base just waiting for reinforcement to arrive). And spine crawler mobility sucks… they take to long to re-root themselves…
very enlightening thread. it sounds like in the meantime, the way to think of it is that at the top levels of play, zerg have troubles but at the lower its totally possible to win. each humiliating loss you suffer you’ll be getting way better by having to work harder and learning micro/macro skills, while the terran players are not improving because theyre just following a build order and clicking attack move. once blizzard nerfs terran in the next patch, those players will get owned by you for free.
As opposed to Turret or Cannon mobility? Look zerg has a lot of problems, but thats not one of them. An early spinecrawler or two is awesome for zerg.
Considering you’re only silver level, maybe the problem lies outside of game balance and somewhere on your end? It really irks me when people start complaining about shit they don’t understand.
If a protoss builds a cannon early, they’re seriously gimping any aggressive actions they may have. Unlike Zerg, we have to actually go out of our way to build a building just to get that. That is one less gateway, a later cybernetics core, or something we have to trade off just for that cannon. Zerg? Once they scout any sort of aggression coming their way via their overlords spotting, they can toss up a spine crawler on reaction. Don’t even get me started on adding a magic extra 50 minerals to the cost of a spinecrawler, they cost 100 + 50 for the worker, thats 150. Not 200.
Zerg needs a lot of help, especially against T, but seriously don’t be a scrub and blame the game. At WORST Z v T is like a 7-3 matchup, and probably more like a 6-4 matchup, in Street Fighter
I think even at the lower levels, your going to get pwned hard by the average terran player. The problem is that there are too many weapons in the Terran tool kit. It’s funny that I came to the conclusion that the Zerg don’t feel right after playing random for most of my games. In SC1, I was always heaviliy a random player (with a zerg slant, because I like their macro potential). But I realized that games were harder for me to win playing zerg, as compared to when I played Terran/Toss. I could play sloppy as terran/toss and still eek out a win.
I’m going to enjoy your advice my friend. We all know the game will be patched, because Blizzard is awesome. I just can’t help feeling that the game was “rushed”…
No, I think you are wrong here Pimp. I’m not claiming, and never claimed, to be a decent player. Have you even played zerg for more than a couple games or played as Terran? Sure, the ZvP matchup is easier to handle, but at least Protoss can somewhat block off their choke, AND cannon’s can attack GROUND AND AIR. You are a dedicated Protoss player, so you don’t know what it’s like as a zerg to feel this level of frustration. I’m sorry, but I might be a scrub, but I don’t want to have to play like a pro just to win a game or two.
And it does cost 200 minerals. You HAVE to replace that drone! My argument is based on static defenses for the zerg and their limited options AS IS.
The drone cost is already factored into the building cost, the second drone gets to mine, it’s not used up.
That’s like me claiming a cannon costs 300 minerals each because you need a forge. You don’t get to double dip on the cost just to make yourself feel better, it just doesn’t work like that. You don’t HAVE to replace the drone, if you look at it as if the drone is being made straight for the building; consider the time it mines to be a bonus. Using your logic, since the worker mines minerals before becoming a building, it gets a discount over toss because my cannons can’t mine their own minerals until I need them to be defense.
My brother mains Zerg, he’s a diamond zerg now. I watch him play all the time, he’s pretty good, beats me most of the time. If you’re having trouble with terran, post up a few replays of you losing and he (or Iren or any of the other zergs here) can take a look at help you out and find out why you’re losing other than just saying “TERRAN IS SO IMBA” Zerg is disadvantaged but it’s not free by any means.
Okay, i’ll respect your opinion. My original argument is geared at ZvT, not ZvP, which is a little more manageable for me given that I can tech to hydralisks/roaches, and hold off a protoss army w/queens/splings…
anyone who wants in just send me a message at Irennicus.229
I don’t have everyone on my friends list yet so if you want in just message me.
edit: catchafire post up some of your replays i’ll be glad to help you out if you want
wow idra vs morrow games were hard to watch even as a T player TT
I can send you a file through, I don’t really know how else to do it. Thanks for offering to help!
upload it to sc2replayed.com and link us the file from there once its done, its the best way to do it IMO, it lets you catalogue your replays and even watch replays of people you might have played, etc
Thanks Pimp! Also, you pro players please don’t laugh at my gameplay. Seeing this game, I can say that one of my faults was the poor Mutalisk Play I made around the 10 Minute mark. This was the last ZvT game I played…
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/62887-1v1-terran-zerg-incineration-zone
You do realize spine crawlers are good because all you need is a spawning pool. The races are supposed to be UNIQUE. I play random at a diamond level and ZvT is not as bad as many make it out to be with the Muta-thor magic box trick. While Terran are probably the best at the moment, the game is still evolving and all it takes for 1 strat to change the game around. Get to top level of play (I’m nowhere near there yet) and then you have a right to complain.
Fair enough. I attempted to try the magic box in that replay I submitted and failed miserably… the guy had marines that I couldn’t see because I was so pumped up, haha.
kk…soooo…
I just watched your game, and I really don’t want to sound super negative but you want to change a lot of the things you’re doing…
#1: Your build order…I don’t know what you’re going to gain out of 11 pool that 10 pool wouldn’t have done better…but what’s even stranger is that you use that build order to attain a more economic build order’s results. You had nothing but 2 lings until close to 8 minutes into the game, had he done any early aggression you would’ve spent the rest of the game on your hind leg. If you put a pool down that early you should plan on harassing your opponent with earlier lings than normal. That’s the only way to make that kind of build order feasible since that’s the only way to level out the economic game when you go for it. Many Zerg players would advise 13/14 pool and a similar gas. I like 14 gas/14 pool but you should go for something like that if you want to hold on to a looser army for a bigger economic game.
#2: You generally never want to put a second hatch in your base. There are a couple of scenarios in which it makes a small degree of sense (overly dedicated ling rush, massive amounts of extra resources because of lots of expos late game) but certainly not in place of actually expanding. He was able to have more SCVs than you for a large margin of the game which when combined with MULEs turned his economy into a monster compared to your’s. If you had simply expanded and built drones there you could’ve gotten away with your muta strat way faster and speaking of…
#3: Muta harass: It’s called harass for a reason. It isn’t going to win a fight out right with thors/marines, and you shouldn’t look to engage that kind of force when harassing with mutas. Focus down scvs, building attachments, supply depots, anything with small health to fuck up the terran’s base. Once his guys are closing in take them on a route to where he might have an expansion hiding to rinse and repeat. Often times you can just run them away to run them right back 10 seconds later if the Terran really thinks you’ve left.
#4: Go Lair for a REASON. When you went Lair you didn’t do a single thing you couldn’t have done with just a hatch for another minute or more. Get overlord speed, get a spire earlier, maybe throw down a hydra den/nydus network. Do SOMETHING with Lair tech otherwise you’re just using your resources foolishly.
#5: You’ve probably heard it a bunch of times but…build more workers. You were too lax and you floated too many resources. Get more concerned about spending your money while increasing your money flow.
There’s more but I’ll have to watch the video again, those were the most notable things that stood out to me…
OH! And just do 9 overlord dude, the extractor trick is whack.
Haha, thanks for the advice! I generally have strayed away from intensive build orders because… hmm, dunno. I’ll focus more on the 14gas/pool build, but the whole timing thing I just don’t have down in terms of when to get lair, so I just get it, to get it… But I did get a spire, even though it might have been late. I play a lot of 2v2, and i’ve found the second hatchery in base to help a bit; but in 1v1 I guess it doesn’t make much sense? Re-watching the replay, I do notice that I didn’t do anything much after getting my lairs… At that point, i’m practically stuck in a bind… I hate going the nydus route because that seems a bit gimmicky to me, and I rarely ever use infestors… So my main options for me are, basically mutas and tier 1… I dunno, i’ve gotta get better at things to do eary and how to tech properly. As is, i’m floundering w/out purpose… I usually tend to lose focus a lot, and start to feel overwhelmed…
I’m not such a big critic of the 2 hatchery play, if you have a hard time keeping up on your spawn larvae, having a second hatchery isn’t a bad idea. The goal is to eventually not need it, but it’s not the end of the world. Eventually you’d want to put that at your second expansion right away though, once you get more comfortable.
The game was really weird, it felt like I was watching a 20 minute no rush game. In that time, you got a handful of speedlings and then a handful of mutas. He got a bunch of thors. It was pretty obvious you were in trouble.
The biggest thing that got you was upgrades; he got 2 weapon 1 armor upgrades by the time he attacked; with that +2 attack on his thors, he can start to 1 shot your zerglings unless you have armor, which you didn’t. That meant the thor counter, zerglings, were not going to be as effective.
Also, you seem to spawn a few units, attack, then go back to nothing; work on having a constant production of units, both workers and army. Had you gotten the mutas earlier you could have really done some damage, but they came out a bit too late to be super effective, even if you did harass his money decently, but by then it didn’t matter because he had 2/1 thors versus your virtually nonexistant army. You had two good choices at this point, out expand him and build up a bigger army faster, or put pressure on him to exploit his passiveness; you did neither, instead sticking within your own base and not really getting much of anything. Try to always be 1 base up at least versus terran.
This is map specific, but had you gotten some hydras/speedlings and came in his back door through the destructable rocks, he’d be in a world of hurt. But you let him get comfortable and go hugely upgraded thors, and unfortunately zerg doesn’t have a great easy answer for thors (magic box mutas though work well if you practice keeping them spaced out properly).
And please don’t waste banelings on thors, that made me a sad panda, use them on his front door and bust yourself in
Yeah but that’s 300 minerals that are going away towards a more constant drain on your resources which you can already drain with just one hatch…especially early game. Like I say, there are situations where 2 hatches in one base aren’t the worst idea, but in place of an early expansion when there wasn’t even any pressure exerted on him? The ONLY reason I’d think you would do that is if you wanted a shit ton of lings.