Sorry that I have to do this but…
lol
I said I would and so I did.
which is why I apologized ahead of time. I know its a dead horse at this point, but god dammit capcom!!!
Give me something other than the hoping my oppnent screws up.
I don’t know…doesn’t Vega have some really solid normals, IE c.lp, s.lk and c.mp/mk? Is cosmic heel totally necessary to start an offense? It seems like you’re saying that the areas Vega has a hard time dealing with (AA, bad wake up) need to be fixed so he doesn’t have to “lose where he should be dominant”…how shocking.
If Vega got a go to AA and reversal, what do you have to do to T-Hawk, to Dudley, to Dee Jay, all of them to help make sure they don’t get torn apart by him? “Suck it up, why can’t there be bad matchups!!?!?!?!”
Why can’t YOU have bad matchups?
well, i want two fixes and they are reasonable. Give Cosmic heel back (which isn’t happening because Capcom clearly stated that they wanted Vega as a defensive character), or fix cr.hp and st.hk. That’s it. No EX Scarlett Terror, or some viable pseudo DP on wake up with FADC. No better ultra, or combo into ultra. If you want a defensive character, fix what’s wrong and stop giving useless buffs like Sky High Claw doing more push back on hit.
why should Vega have a reversal, if his ground game is really good? Why should he have a 4 frame wake up option that forces the opponent to second guess himself once he earned that knockdown? Giving him that one fix, (at this point preferably cr.hp, st.hk), will make him on the same level as Sagat, and everybody in this thread can agree that Sagat has become one of the most well thought out character in the game, because nothing is free. Im still weak where it matters most, and still exploitable if im not up to par with my game, exactly how the SF4 engine works.
Its not like fixing cr.hp or st.hk will make him to overbearing. Instead of worrying if my opponent is going to jump, i can think about whether or not i want to press cr.mp and risk the opponent jumpin in at me and landing a combo. It makes the character more dynamic and complete. Is that not reasnoable?
BTW, it was. If you look at videos from Japan, specifically Reiketsu?, he initiates offense of big mistakes. That isnt always going to happen.
BTW, im still going to have bad match ups. Give him a reversal, and then a lot of bad match ups and even match ups become in Vega’s favor. Im not asking for that. I would love them to fix normals that don’t hit when they should, but that would cause for even more despair. But it aint gonna happen and im not going to push the issue.
Hawk still has amazing normals and can play the poking game.
Dee Jay has fireball to cover his approach and use it to set himself up, in fact, fixing cr.hp and st.hk isn’t going to change the match up. he still going to only jump at me on wake up.
Dudley doesn’t jump in as much, and at the ideal angle, non of those moves would hit him so i would still have to react to those moves.
Im still going to die to
Abel, Akuma, etc
And im still going to be even against half the cast
Are people really complaining about EX rainbow roll, a move that on any character with a real reversal wouldn’t get used. Have you ever been os’d ultra’d for doing your reversal? How about someone just mashes jab and you lose to that?
EX rainbow can be set up to be unblockable or close to it, but it also has horrendous startup and the invinciblity runs out before it’s active. If it’s not a reversal it doesn’t break armor, so it’s free focus > whatever you want.
The top tier invalidates other characters footsies a lot of the time and they also have great mixup games. If your game is footsies and your characters drawback for their super awesome top tier footsies is being limited in some other way, you are screwed really.
Fei? Best footsies and a bunch of other shit for no reason.
Unpredictable doesn’t mean good. Whats so good and unpredictable about Blanka other than his ambiguous jumpins that you need to land a throw to setup?
I’m still trying to figure out the justifications for Blanka’s lack of wakeup game, his grappler slow f.dash, and all of his other weaknesses. Good point though, I really wish this logic was applied to every character.
It’s hard to start offense with a character when the move that can get you in no longer puts you in an advantageous position
I mean thing if abel’s step kick was -2 or something, or Ken’s only had 1 active frame.
Frame advantage is essential to starting offense a lot of the time.
I guess I’m not understanding how going “He did this, when I thought he’d do that” in your hypothetical c.mp/c.hp is “dynamic”. Really though, this is getting down to a matter of opinion in which I know none of us will ever sway the other from believing what they do. I’ve always thought the cool part of SF was that characters (some at least) had a weakness, and as a player, your job was to figure out how to work around that.
Why argue about something like that? It’s dumb.
I still call Fei for top 3 in AE
Dammit, ya’ll are making me wanna play Vega lol
I expect dumb shit from a lot of people on here but I am legitimately surprised that you didn’t pick up on that assload of sarcasm, Veserius.
And Capcom took Cosmic Heel away because it basically forced you to guess if Claw was going to kara throw or not after landing Cosmic Heel no matter the spacing. This gave Claw a really good offense on some characters that didn’t fit his design. This is what one of the better Claw players has told me, I am not necessarily a good Claw player and he could have just been giving me the short and sweet version. Of course, Claw could and probably should have kept it, but Capcom likes their characters to fit a mold as said earlier.
a character is supposed to be weak. That’s a given. ST was the best example of this.
let me rephrase
can you imagine a guile who really can’t keep people out, because of said tool set? how am I as a player supposed to work around this issue, when the tools given to me are limited, and allow for minimum flexibility?
in SF4, you aren’t allowed as much creativity to work around said issue. I don’t like SF3 any bit, but parry adds that creativity, that SF4 is lacking. ST does it with its supers.
at this point, the discussion is moot though.
I don’t mind that mold, as long as the mold works though.
Confirmed: Street Fighter 5 will be Cyberpunk based.
all i know is that when i watch japans vega players, they arent free to jump ins. unless we are talking dive kicks, and many characters are free to those
They already gave you 38 other fucking characters. Please, stop complaining. It’s entirely your fault for deciding to play shit tier.
I really despise this line of thinking, and not just because I play Gouken.
EDIT: In reality, the fact I play Gouken has nothing to do with me despising it.
I believe in that line of thinking, I hate that I can’t find any other character “fun” to play but I only complain about my character when updates are announced because they’re pretty much asking “what do you think your character needs”. The rest of the time I’m dealing with it.
There is no rational argument in favor of combining a desire to win with the selection of a character that you think is bad.
I agree. I haven’t played to win in a while, I just play to be stylish and try to get hatemail.
Of course, using Dudley all I get is lovemail >:/
I copied this from Air’s blog; a lot of you have probably already read this:
…I have literally never thought about buffing the character that I am using in any fighting game. I have never even considered it. The story that Air is telling in that blog post represents what we should all be trying to achieve.
Well people always want to win, that is a given, and you can 1)be loyal to a character since SF2, or 2)like a lot of things about how the character plays(defensive, mixup, good pokes etc…) or 3)fits your [S]personality[/S] personal play style(offensive/defensive). That would be 3 rational arguments I can think of right away.
[media=youtube]Udy0f1JBCvM[/media]
there are a lot of more matches that show what im talking about. this one is just the easiest to illustrate my point.
[media=youtube]PSfMA4PMuOc[/media]
this illustrates my point as to what Vega is in AE. Feeds of player mistakes. That shit isn’t viable
which is why Im tryiing to use Sagat now. Fuck low tier, fuck working hard. BTW, 37 characters are piece of shit’s with no appeal. K Thanks Bye.[/media]
Completely irrational.
That implies that you think the character is good.
I don’t know what that means.
I guess that depends on how you define complaining.
For instance if I sat here and gave you a logical explanation of why Gouken was bad, how you could improve him to make him be more in line competitively with the other fighters, and just do a pretty objective analysis, it would be contrued as whining by most people.
I would do it with another character as well, if I had the knowledge and experience that I have with Gouken, with other characters. I don’t.
At the heart of it is all, is that I feel every character should be competitive. If they gave you a million characters, but only 1 was worth playing, you really didn’t get a million characters.
Just the statement about being given 38 characters to play, pick one that isn’t shit tier is very misleading. If you eliminate the shit tier you are already well below 38 characters to choose from.
Each iteration of SF2 I want to believe was an attempt to rebalance and bring the cast in line together competitively as possible. I want to believe that, but after SF4 and what the are no capable of doing, I don’t really believe it.
I’m basically left with my own belief that a fighting game should offer many different options (characters) while all remaining relatively equal when matched up against each other.
Please don’t regurgitate the “no game can be 5/5 down the line” I know this. I don’t need to hear the regurgitated trash that is common knowledge from people acting like they been playing fighting games for 20 years. You are missing the point if you are jumping to spew this out. And that’s fine. I don’t mind people missing the point and I really don’t care to try to get them to the point if they are not capable on their own.
Some styles will naturally have an advantage over one another, that is to be expected. I understand all this.
A simple example of what I think could be “fixed” with Gouken is that right now, his cr.mp (really any attack other then st or cl.hp) does not combo into his fireball either on block or hit. This is supposed to be a zoning character, and by that, I mean he wants to keep people away from him. He has a bad wake up game, he has no real dangerous mixups in close that open you up for serious damage or more mixups. He has no two hit fireball he can use to stop focus dashing through his fireballs. It’s relatively easy to get in on Gouken so long as you aren’t trying to jump fireballs like an idiot.
So anyway, if you make a mistake that is -5 on block and just outside of the range where proximity attacks kick in (close standing) Gouken can only swipe at you with cr.mp or st.mp (which doesn’t combo) If he cancels into a fireball on hit you can focus crumple him or reversal uppercut. If you block, at any range, it is the same deal, focus crumple or reversal uppercut.
Kind of stupid for a character that has a terrible wake up game and crappy normals and an ok zoning game to not be able to at least combo for a measly 125 damage. This is one of those small things. You also can’t punish with tatsu because cr.mp hit animation (the animation on the opponent) make every character duck their head so that the tatsu you use (if you can even use one) is characters dependent with no real rhyme or reason to it, and that is assuming you didn’t push them out too far where it will whiff or just get one hit and then drop them so that you go flying off into space while the quick recover for an Ultra.
Maybe there is just some game breaking thing about allowing this to work that I can’t see but yeah.
I’m not talking about making whole design changes, or a character sudden strength where before it had none (wake up for Gouken in this case) but a character should be able to do something relatively well imo so that they have something to focus on.
I guess I sort of view it as a racing game back on nintendo where each car had different attributes for speed, handling, acceleration, etc and you could best choose the one that suited you cause all were relatively even in point distribution.
Before you respond, realize that this is just my opinion, you probably have your own and that’s fine. Don’t flame me cause I think a fighting game should be built around the core philosophy that the fighters should be tweaked to all be competitive (outside of inherent weaknesses to other styles).
I’m just explaining why I don’t like the phrase “they gave you 38 other characters go choose one”. You really don’t have a choice of 38 other characters to be competitive. I think, at the heart of it all, we all want to win, so I guess try to understand where others are coming from (and no this doesn’t mean tweak my character until I can finally beat so and so)
I know some of you have no problem switching characters to whoever is strongest, but why does it have to be like that? If all characters were relatively equal, you wouldn’t need to ever switch your character to the “strongest” one. You could play whoever you wanted in the cast and have relatively the same chance to win.
Anyway, that’s just me. As I said before, you are all entitled to your own opinions.