Yeah, mago was indeed right when he said that Seth was the 2nd worse character in Super.
He didn’t. The C-tier characters in the tier list were listed alphabetically putting Seth second last.
Oh ok, this means he was right. Seth is definitely C-.
sarcasm
if it was just one of them alone, i might have a reason to strongly disagree. but you not only have mago, you have what his peers call the best in the game in daigo, and the worlds best akuma in tokido. and if anybody would know, it would be him
who the hell else are you going to find that is more credible than those 3
in credibility- japans big3 of sf4> mid level srk akuma forum ppl
and can we stop with the find the one thing a person has ever said wrong as reason to disregard a statement. what about all the things mago got right?
I think Akuma players have a legitimate reason to complain. Everyone knows that Akuma will probably land somewhere in the top 10, I don’t think that’s being debated. What *is *being debated is the fact that the nerfs don’t make sense. SF4 is a “herp derp” game by nature, it doesn’t benefit a character with low health who relies HEAVILY on spacing and timing. Akuma is probably the definition of precision in this game. Hell, he doesn’t even have an ultra you can mash on wake-up. There were better ways to “fix” Akuma if necessary, though the fact that he wasn’t even #1 in AE makes you wonder why he was even “fixed” at all.
The other characters should have been buffed in order to match him. This is just stupid, I’m just waiting for this game to die and SF5 to release.
That’s Capcom’s way of “balancing” a game tho: If you are considered top tier, expect to be nerfed at some places where your excel the most (Twins got palm/dive kick/ some normals nerfed, Fei got rekka nerf/ Viper got damage nerf etc), the others will get buffs, some that aren’t even necessary but are still buffs to make the people happy and make them say: “at least I didnt get any nerfs” or “at least I got something”.
What exactly does herp derp even mean? SF4 is a herp derp game? what?
Reading this thread and seeing it used in so many different contexts makes me immediately suspect about it having any defined meaning whatsoever. In other cases like that, the use of
ambiguity is a cover for a lack of coherent, logical thought.
"As Schopenhauer explained, poor thinkers love ambiguity and are drawn to it by instinct:
“It is also a characteristic of such writers to avoid, if it is possible, expressing themselves definitely, so that they may be always able in case of need to get out of a difficulty; this is why they always choose the more abstract expressions: while people of intellect choose the more concrete; because the latter bring the matter closer to view, which is the source of all evidence.”
I think people need to be able to admit that some things in the game are just stupid and shouldnt be. The twins were stupid from the outset. Don’t even see how or why they allowed that to be honest. Some characters just have stupid options that shouldnt be. Like Roses Super U2 was a stupid option even if she was barely B tier. Akuma having a million mixup options, as strong as he his, is stupid. So what if he lost two options. Akumas just won’t be able to play Rock, Paper, Scissors, Fork, Knife, Spoon, Hammer, Drill, etc. on a waking a character that only has Rock, Paper Scissors (some dont even have that) to get out. lol.
The implicit assumption in this line of thinking is that character strength is linear. Sparing any gruesome metaphors, it just isn’t.
-Mashing Reversals
First SF game where mashing is truly an effective strategy. I totally forgot to piano and time properly in 3S due to playing too much AE.
-Easy Combos
Everyone can pull off a 10-hit combo even if they completely lack zoning, footsies, and mind-games. I have a few examples I can show of high-ranked players who fit this bill.
-Random Matchups
Gootecks himself said that there is no matchup vs. Ibuki once she is in the air (I can get the quote if necessary). Then there are random characters like Viper who spam super-jump and 50/50 burnkicks. Let’s not mention El Fuerte, the most anti-SF character ever made.
-Fundamentals Dumbed Down
Footsies are easier to perform due to having a focus attack to escape from bad positioning. Neutral jumping projectiles is no longer a skill like it was in other SF games.
-Option Select
Less of an emphasis on making good reads and taking carefully-planned risks. Get a knockdown, hold a combination of buttons and watch the engine do the work for you.
Yup, the one thing we need is for this thread to stagnate further into a “WHY SFIV SUCKS” debate/discussion. :rolleyes:
So now everything Mago and co says we can come back and bring this up and everything they say no longer has any credibility? There’s a difference between Seth, a character that few played at a very high level and Akuma, who many played at a high level in Japan so its understandable that the opinion of Seth could be wrong since his potential hadn’t been shown whereas Tokido, Infiltration, Eita, -6, Fujino and others were beasting with Akuma and hence they will have more knowledge of what makes Akuma strong or not.
Now is it possible that they’re wrong and Akuma won’t be top 5 or even top 10? Sure, and I’ll admit it if I’m wrong. But can you admit the same thing and ask yourself “can you guys be wrong about how much the nerfs will affect Akuma in the end as well?”
It would surprise me if Akuma players who are thinking of switching could name 10 other characters that they are considering. I am not convinced that the list is very long if you really start to think about it. You will usually end up with, “I would still rather play Akuma”.
An argument against this could be that you are sick of the game play changes and don’t trust Capcom anymore (in other words, I would rather play any other character :sad:). It is probably a valid point.
Edit…
…part of the point that has been missed by the trolls (I am not saying that you are trolling) is that the changes represent game play changes for a character that has been continuously modified (negatively) since vanilla SF4. That isn’t debatable. The troll argument actually admits this by being based mostly on the fact that game play changes are irrelevant to Akuma players because they can just do something else (they are admitting that the character has to be played differently now). This is actually the only argument that they can make because they have no understanding of how the character actually plays (Capcom could have changed anything and they just would have made the “do something else” argument regardless).
It is entirely possible that Akuma is the best character in 2012 but that doesn’t change the fact that a legitimate discussion can be had about whether or not the character deserved the dev’s attempt to break the “loop”.
People whining in this thread are a joke. You think cuz you have some points online that you understand anything about what your character needs or doesn’t need. You don’t know crap about your character. I play you people all the time in tourneys. You get bodied and then start talking about how bad a match up it is for your character or how ass your character is. I’m a bad matchup for you, not my character. You are ass, not your character.
It sounds like you need to be nerfed.
Squirtguns is clearly unbalanced. Why would Capcom allow this?
Literally the only valid thing you said is about mashing. Combos in this game are actually not as easy as many current fighters are, Gootecks wasn’t being serious, Viper can’t “spam” super jumps or “50/50” burn kicks and El Fuerte is easily the worst character in this game when it comes to potential and viability. Fundamentals aren’t dumbed down because of focus attack (heard of buffering???) and neutral jumping projectiles? Really? OS makes the game based on making better reads…and guess what? They’ve been in every SF…
I’d also like to mention that Mago was not the only one who ranked Seth low. And he isn’t necessarily wrong. Seth is a C tier character who can get wins, just like Abel, Ryu, and Rufus. He isn’t Blanka, El Fuerte, Gouken, or Hawk. Better Japanese players tend to rank characters like Viper and AE Seth lower because they play the player much more than the match up (though they often lose to characters with strong fundamentals, which is why Akuma is ranked so high - he has both.)
We can tell a lot about a player by the things they say/complain about.
On mashing reversals -
Is this really still a problem for anyone still? The game engine has been around for what, 3 years? This makes me think that you have poor execution (thus are getting hit by mashers) and do not utilize frame traps (punishing mashers for pressing buttons). Because, if a player actually does those 2 things mashing reversals becomes a non issue. You do know that these options exist right?
On Easy combos-
What? You say that everyone can pull off 10 hit combos then say that you’ll back this assertion up with examples of high rank players? (barring for the moment that this post doesn’t take damage scaling into account - as a general rule a shorter combo would do more damage in many cases)
On Random matchups -
Gootecks is now the authority on SF? Since when? I like the guy and watch cross counter from time to time but what has he done lately in the SF scene (competitively?) I take the things Mike Ross has to say much more seriously if you’re going to bring up the dynamic duo. Also, Gootecks Ibuki is pretty much trash. ClankyD would be a better reference point if you are looking for an American Ibuki player. In anycase, I don’t even know what that wisdom from gootecks is supposed to mean. Viper is one of the highest execution characters in the game this is a huge over simplification…are you implying that Viper players don’t need skill to win? Or that she is a pick up and play character? L. O. L.
El Fuerte is not just very good, that doesn’t make him “anti-SF” (again, what does that even supposed to mean?).
On Fundamentals Dumbed Down-
WHAT? Footsies can be seen both ways, although I think it’s a stretch to look at them the way you do. The threat of Focus means you’ve got to up your footsies game. Yes, lol, Neutral jumping projectiles is a core skill that takes years of practice to effectively master… how is pressing up to n.j. a projectile any different in this game compared to ST? You try to time your jump to the speed of the projectile…there really isn’t much more to it. I don’t get how this is “dumbed down”
On Option select-
I agree with you on this point to a certain extent.
Yet, any OS can be defeated by, wait for it… blocking. Have a solid defense ready. OS work by punishing escape/reversal attempts. It’s not really as simple as “hold a bunch of buttons and watch the engine do the work for you”. There are many times where an OS will allow you to punish a single outcome but not punish others and leave you open to punishment yourself.
case in point - Bison OS against Fei Long:
Against Fei, OS roundhouse will block dp and tag backdash, but lose to short chicken wing. You can OS stand short to beat chickenwing, but then he can backdash. The risk is yours to take. (thanks to m16ghost in the bison forums for the post)
Clearly just holding a lot of buttons in this situation is the magic key to winning. No need to think and read your opponent at all, or condition them to make certain moves. Just bam! hold those magic OS buttons and you get free damage. lol man, get real.
This adds a lot to both the overall meta game and the yomi during a match. Also* option selects have been in the series since ST*, where have you been?
Sorry buddy, but I gotta conclude that we can tell a lot about you from your post…any pretty much none of it is good. I’ll leave it at that because I am feeling civil.
Also, get used to it because none of those things will change in AE 2012.
One of the best posts Ive read!
one of the worst post ive read!
Great post but to add to Mashing… ONLINE PLAY MASHING IS TOP TIER LOL! Honestly I hate online play and the things you can get away with on it and have to deal with. Offline mashing should not be a big problem like you said and you should be using frame traps and the sort. online however … FUCK INPUT DELAY!