Viper gets blown up by 3f jabs. She also has no practical way of punishing moves that are -4 or more on block, she’s got crap defense, she’s got 0 footsies, weak crouch tech options, terrible focus attack etc etc etc. She doesn’t have a stable strategy against anyone (has to rely on gimmicks). She’s not really that strong at all. The reason so many people dislike her is because everyone hates losing to “random” stuff.
The fastest version also has like 23 frames of startup, only 4 active frames, and is punishable on both whiff and reaction.
Stop jumping.
She probably doesn’t do well against the twins, but she blows Sagat up. And lots of characters have ways of pressuring her for free once her back is on the ground since her wakeup options aren’t that great.
Unless you have incredible option selects, this is no big deal. In the last tournament I went to (GVN Winter Brawl) Wolfkrone did the LK burn kick on wakeup after knockdown constantly, and no top players “reacted to it”. Also which Viper whiffs burn kicks on purpose? The hitbox is big! If you do it on wakeup it will always strike the opponent as long as they aren’t doing anything invincible. And if I tag Viper after ducking underneath her with a normal when she’s doing the burn kick, there’s no impact damage-wise and I have only reset her to a standing position.
More like “don’t cross me up, ever, even on wakeup.” So much for being free to mixups on knockdown, there’s another part of the knockdown game gone.
If you can avoid three out of four mixups on your wakeup because you have two non-EX invincible reversals that are no problem to make safe, you’re not free on wakeup. Especially when trades always work in your favor.
Cody, Guy, Ibuki, Blanka, Dhalsim, Dudley, El Fuerte, Vega… these characters are free on wakeup. Not Viper.
I have an os that deals with Viper’s wakeup pretty much completely, I’m assuming people aren’t used to playing a lot of viper, especially ones that good because there are so few of them.
Viper is free on wakeup to Blanka. Blanka isn’t free to Viper on wakeup. Also why crossup Viper when more and more characters are able to unblockable her?
Blanka has a good backdash distance, good walk speed(I walk out of wakeup pressure all the time), 2 bad reversals that also have a crapload of invincibility, f.hop(goes through throws/air resets against normals a lot), and a dumb hitbox that makes things not work on him properly. Oh also he gets up late for no reason so certain safejumps don’t work on him. You can’t OS all of his possible options at once like you can vs. Vega. Vega literally has nothing but a hope and a prayer, and a good backdash, but OSing against it doesn’t hurt your other options.
Blanka’s backdash according to frame data is a tiny bit slower than average. His only invincible reversal doesn’t knock down on the ground and is punishable on hit…
The problem is against characters that can punish the EX Up Ball on hit. Once they do that, Blanka is really in trouble especially against crouching attacks on his wakeup (beats electricity). Once people realize this, they never jump at Blanka on his wakeup and just poke low constantly. I’m sure you hate the Abel matchup for this exact reason.
I like Blanka’s offensive game that you just described, Blanka’s hop and walk speed are very quick and his short crouching box is very annoying for a lot of characters and their standing normals. Getting up slowly is also a good factor on Blanka’s wakeup, makes crossup safe jumps whiff if mistimed.
I know Viper isn’t invincible on wakeup, I’m just saying she isn’t as bad as people like to make her out to be. If she was that bad on knockdown, she wouldn’t get as far in tournaments as she does; and there’s lots of evidence that shows that she can get away with a lot more when she’s standing up than a lot of other characters can. Even if it’s just a gamble, these gambles work well in her favor.
It’s the backdash distance that is good, not the speed. He can get out of some pressure strings, and make some OS options whiff because of how fast he gets out of there. ex rainbow is invincible, and can get you away. It’s hard to OS against all of Blanka options at once basically. Abel low jab kills Blanka in any situation where abel is at even +1, it is frustrating.
I was talking about f.hop defensively actually, it is good against certain characters especially if they try to tech trap on wakeup. You’ll go through the tech trap, and will actually hop through some OS’s as well, which allows you to punish from the other side.
Also yeah Viper is good on wakeup just because of the diversity of options. There isn’t a single option that covers everything, but you have to make good reads and have variable option selects at the ready to deal with her various options. Which is sort of why I don’t think Blanka is free on wakeup, he can also always desperation U1, which makes people not want to do those low shorts/jabs on your wakeup.
Also, meaty jumps, high/mid meaties, etc.
Up knuckle is 7 frames. If you’re getting hit by a 7-frame reversal when you jump in on her wakeup, then you need to work on your safe jumps.
Ryu has a great wakeup game. Why? Because DP beats everything. If you’re pressing a button next to him when he throws it out, unless you have a move like a dive kick that will cause DPs to whiff or you have something that will trade like Makoto’s oroshi, you’re going to eat a knuckle sandwich. Viper, on the other hand, doesn’t have a good wakeup game. While she does have more options than Ryu, Ryu has the better wakeup game because none of Vipers options cover as many situations as Ryu’s DP does. This isn’t to say Viper’s wakeup game is completely terrible like some characters–I grew to appreciate Viper’s options more after I started playing Makoto–but her wakeup game is still bad, and her glass jaw makes it all the worse.
Viper can’t press buttons on wakeup against a lot of characters. Shotos, for example, can safe jump os dp and it’ll beat every single thing she can do except block. Makoto can safe jump os sweep and it’ll beat everything Viper can do except wakeup super.
I don’t know what character you play, but against a lot of characters, Viper can’t do much on wakeup against people that know how to neutralize her options. So for the most part it’s not a matter of her wakeup game being good, it’s a matter of people not knowing/wanting to learn how to deal with it and crying about it.
Viper’s wake up is laughable. Thunder Knuckles doesn’t have any crazy invincibility like some other reversals (ahem Fei Long). You can safe jump, OS, stuff or reset it.
for the record, ryus wake up game isnt great.
its basically dp or nothing. and its even weaker without 2 bars.
sure you cant safe jump him, but its basically a 50/50 guess on whether or not he is going to do 120dmg to your meaty or get himself killed for guessing wrong.
wake ups arent as simply defined as invincible reversal or not. its more about having multiple options.
fei for example has a dp, safe on block uber damage CW, and a good backdash. you could say he has great a great wake up.
i wouldnt call viper’s great, but she certainly isnt free or laughable. ex siesmo, ex siesmo feint, throwable hp tk, non throwable lk bk, inv ex bk, and a good back dash.
you could say just OS it, but every character dosent have something to deal with all of that
I agree that viper’s wakeup is better then ryu’s, unless he has 2 bars for FADC. Having multilpe decent options is actually better than having a single good one
Man just sitting here thinking Dhalsim is so done in AE. I think Sim haters got their wish. No salt, really. But I’m like arguably the best characters in the game rush his shit down hard. 5.5 or better… or just ugly. Bipson, Gouki, Twins, Fei, Cammy, Abel, Doofus, Viper. Then peeps like Mak, DJ, Sagat and maybe even Ken will jump. Plus less ticky tack damage keeping the window of opportunity open longer for opponents. Ouch!
Guile says hi.
I know of cammy’s and makoto’s, who else has an unblockable on viper?
Guy and Blanka, probably more. her hitbox is bad
But Guile players can always just go black with Deejay and Rog and still keep their downback. There is really no other character in this game like Dhalisim, and there are no other matchups where the rules that apply in sim matchups are still present, so Capcom took the lazy approach and just made Sim less scary and made everyone else moreso.
Won’t ever hear me complain about that one though.
fei and ken
I agree Dhalsim has it too rough in AE, undeservedly so. Playing against Sim in super felt like a challenge, a puzzle to figure out how to get past his zoning because before you knew it you’d run into four back fierces.It was worth it though because you could deal just as much damage on him when you got in. Now that his zoning takes longer to kill you people can afford to take more risks against him because the reward is more in your favour now.
Maybe Sim is meant to be played upclose a bit more, now that his new close combos do good damage? That style of Sim seems pretty wack to me though.
I agree that Dhalsim got it too rough in AE. Capcom went overboard a lot on quite a few characters.
If they were that worried about his polarizing matchups there was a lot softer way of going about it rather than doing a complete damage nerf sweep.
Welp, you can always keep playing Super!
***What if I don’t want to buy the DLC? **
Well, you don’t have to. Matchmaking will continue to be available for Super Street Fighter IV, even with people who own the Arcade Edition DLC or Super Street Fighter IV Arcade Edition retail disc. You won’t be able to select the new characters, but you will be able to fight them, but remember - Super Street Fighter IV balancing rules are assumed during these kinds of matches.*
Well, as a Makoto main, I give a hearty FUCK YOU to people who don’t upgrade. 