I agree with you Cryoh, they could explain more, BUT: let’s take the “link” example. Links are quite difficult. Learning them will take quite a lot of time in training room. You need a lot of grinding.
Now, let me ask you something: will your brother, who has wife/kids/job have the time to grind enough in order to learn the links ?
A. if yes - then how comes he doesn’t have the time to search for a proper tutorial ? It takes far less time.
B. if not - then what’s the point of learning about them, anyway ?
If your are too lazy/busy to look for a tutorial on the web, then most probabelly you will be too lazy/busy to learn the more advanced stuff. And viceversa.
True. When looked at it that way, links themselves are shitty game design, especially when compared to other user-friendly mechanics in the same game, such as lax inputs + large input windows.
Yeah, I just bought Virtua Fighter 4, and holy shit it actually teaches you how to play the game! I felt good about this, but as I went along I wasnt able to do stuff properly and just played arcade mode with what I learned and I did a lot better. Maybe though teaching people how to play the game makes some people realize how complicated it is to understand (something VF is notorious for), and for others they learn it but cant apply it right and they give up.
Ok, I read the OP.
SF 4 is totally aimed at beginners though, its simple and not very complex, does anyone say that SF 4 is complex and harder to pick up than other fighting games out there? It just comes down to people wanting to learn how to play it the whole time theyre still playing it. Normal games have tutorial at the start of the game or as you go along and find new weapons, but theyre brief and then its all about being able to just press one button to use that new skill. With SF and other fighting games, youre constantly having to be in tutorial mode every time you pick up the controller. Most people find that as a waste of time and stupid, and Ive had a friend who HATED Blazblue, and one of the complaints was how small the levels were and they couldnt fight in bigger areas. :S Youre not going to be able to please everyone. Capcom wanted to make a game that would sell millions of copies, so they tried to make a game that anyone could play even if they hadnt played fighting games before, and thus a whole lot of people hated fireballs and didnt want to understand how these games work.
And hearing someone think MK is better than Street Fighter is cringe worthy to me, honestly 9 is better than the last 10 years of MK, but god its just not a great fighting game. MK is popular with people who wont play other fighting games, because people want immediate results which in MK are Fatalities. If it wasnt for the blood and gore no one would play that game, PERIOD! Its like SF is a martial art which takes years to master, and MK is a game like any other people can play with their friends a bunch of times one year and then they move onto some other game. So maybe your gf just isnt the type for fighting games and she feels MK is better because shes progressing through the game, and not learning tools that will help her beat people shell be fighting for the next couple of years as she learns more and more about the game and sees people find new secrets in it.
yeah man i agree. some of them get really long too. james chen has a youtube series where he explains fighting game stuff and they’re like an hour each. we should move toward more typed out guides. maybe pdfs with pictures showing different frames. thankfully i have a friend i go to for fighting game know-how
MK9 and Injustice are more geared for beginners. Those games are cake compared to AE, and combos are extremely easy to do. A majority of the people who play on
MK9 & IGAU have no fundamentals at all. When you beat people on those games you will also get a lot of hatemail.
I’m from the Mortal Kombat community and I have switched over to AE. I’d have to say that AE is 10x better than MK, IGAU. There seems to be a ton of strong players who have fundamentals, execution, footsies, etc… I’ve been playing AE for 4 months now and I have no problem doing my BnB combos.
The manual for SF4 is missing tons of basic information about the game. You could read it from front to back you wouldn’t know anything about links, invincibility frames, cross-ups, frame advantage/disadvantage, etc. Some guy unfamiliar with fighting games shouldn’t have to turn to google to figure out elementary information about the game he purchased. Inaccessibility is probably the main reason fighting games are so unpopular compared to other genres.
Links as a concept aren’t terrible, but so many (most?) characters being dependent on 1-2 frame links to get basic stuff done is, and not just from the PoV of a beginner/intermediate player either. Look at how many tournament matches between top players in this game are decided by who drops a link, even just as a spectator it’s frustrating and anti-climactic to see. I don’t think street fighter should move in the direction of everything being chain combos, but why not a 2 frame buffer or whatever for normals? So a 1 frame link becomes a 3 frame link, 2 frame becomes 4, etc.
sounds like your only real beef is the combo system. I definitely agree especially in today’s day and age with internet play and LCD monitors it really makes no sense why the timing is so ridiculously tight.
One thing that I agree with is that there needs to be a better way to explain the SRK motion.
I think there should be an abandonment of all those motion symbols Capcom used back in the day. It’s much easier for an entry level layman to under stand :f: :d: :df: + :p:. The reason I think those were used in the first place was because they were put on the arcade cabinet panels, or just below the monitors, and they had limited real estate space to work with there. But in the home versions? Nah, not necessary. Namco does it, no reason that Capcom shouldn’t be.
But that’s shitty aesthetics, not shitty game design, IMO.
Oh my lord, are people complaining about SF4 being too HARD to get into.
Holy shit I usually just tell people to play kofxiii because it is the best game out right now but if you are complaining about SF4(of all games) being to difficult, then dont even look at kofxiii. It might send you into shock.
Seriously though people should shut the hell up about this game being too hard to get into. This is literally the noob mans game to get into and feel good about themselves.(i guess also marvel 3)
If people keep bitchin about this game being too difficult, I shutter when I think about SF5.
Oh my god it will probably have one button full combos that will include one frame links. shuttershutter
One thing that I agree with is that there needs to be a better way to explain the SRK motion.
I think there should be an abandonment of all those motion symbols Capcom used back in the day. It’s much easier for an entry level layman to under stand :f: :d: :df: + :p:. The reason I think those were used in the first place was because they were put on the arcade cabinet panels, or just below the monitors, and they had limited real estate space to work with there. But in the home versions? Nah, not necessary. Namco does it, no reason that Capcom shouldn’t be.
But that’s shitty aesthetics, not shitty game design, IMO.
No. SFIV is not noob friendly. The only difference in this game and the past SF games is that people mash DPs(wide reversal window) and do random/wake up Ultras. What people see is scrub tactics. I’ll bet money you’d see the same shit if these players tried any of the other SF games.
Let me drop a bit of knowledge on the thread in response to the OP. This is my 7 years of working in the AAA game industry for ya.
The new rebalance patch, expansion whatever is not being made to save the company or whatever. Street Fighter has been out and by far, the game itself has a extremely short shelf life. Nothing they can do would ideally extend that shelf life this late in the game. Instead, the patch, expansion, whatever from my perspective, is a branding move to revitalize the game for the hardcore fans plain and simple. I don’t foresee this making a lot of non-SF fans picking this game up after those changes and I don’t see the overall game topping the charts that easily either.
That’s not to say they won’t make any money or is not a good step for them. It’s just to say, I don’t think they are putting all their eggs in one basket with this new release like it’s going to save everything. As you noted, SF has a pretty steep learning curve and it requires a certain type of player to really enjoy the game long-term.
To me, I don’t think the game is very bad game design. Sure, it’s hard to learn and even harder to master. That’s why IMHO the competitive scene for SF is so small. Very few people are able to master the game and do it consistently. On the other hand, that’s what makes SF so great too. If the game was dramatically changed to a point where mechanics were easier to understand or combos easier to execute (as so many are with the shortcuts), then it could dramatically change the game for the worse.
I agree some mechanics could be explained better and made it easier to understand as well get. But, a lot of designers are big on discovery too. This day and age, so many gamers want everything given to them because they have become lazy, inpatient and just overall bad gamers in comparison to the generations before them. The generation who had to put in quarters into machines with zero online guides, online videos or online communities to help them. You have it so easy now it’s not even funny and yet, you and your GF still can’t play the game.
I really wouldn’t mind Capcom or any other companies to provides third party utilities like game’s tutorials, and training tools, for sale.
Thoses games are cheap, last longer than any other high price games, I would defo put 5 bucks on a good tutorial DLC for example. And instead of releasing only patchs for main game why not seeing trials packs, combos challenges mini games, etc, for sale.
This would rock.
Good for me, good for the company who’ll find a good way to make some money. Seems that’s a big issues atm for them. But hell there’s a fucking whole univers of ideas to be exploited still.
I really do hope they follow KI’s or skullgirls’ example and give us a tutorial mode/better training mode. However, i disagree with what you said about the game being balanced. I collected character usage numbers from over 60 majors from may 2012 'til now, and i gotta tell ya, there is such a thing as top tier. I might post later if anyone wants to see it.
While I do agree that it could do with a better tutorial mode, when I read posts like this all I get from it is “I wanna be as good as the guys I watch on streams but I don’t wanna put in the work”. Sorry, it doesn’t work like that in any competitive game or sport.
All I took from this thread is that I should play Budokai 3 again.
But I do agree with the OP. A better tutorial would definitely make things easier for complete beginners. I remember how I had similar problems with trial mode.
“Stop blocking Dan, I’m doing combos!” If it weren’t for the Street fighter 2 days, I probably would have dropped the game, but after some internet research I figured stuff out.
The only thing that lessens the hype for USF4 is that the netcode will probably remain unchanged. Then again it might be time to look for an offline scene in my area.
The thing I find odd is that the iPhone version of Street Fighter IV actually has a really good tutorial mode - so they a) can do it when they want; and b) understand it’s importance for the ‘casual’ market…