GO TO THE NEW MATCH UP THREADZ
This shit is driving me mad, how do you catch vegas invul backflip?
refer to this: http://shoryuken.com/f333/there-no-shortcut-perfection-dudley-indepth-matchup-discussion-day-2-vega-245888/
The two charge moves aren’t honda’s best asset. Its jab hands in the corner. the pressure that Honda can put on dudley in the corner is ridiculous. however, i think dudley can fish to counter poke with cr lp
I’d say the matchup is in honda’s favor 6-4 but nowhere near impossible for dudley. Honda’s AA aren’t all that, and if you can force honda to not play with a charge, u can always use some creative jump ins like f+mk to empty jump etc.
the real matchup issue is that Honda does dudley type damage and has zangief like life…
Neutral jump if Honda is trying to hit you with hhs traps. If he does the hands you get a free jump-in combo. It’s risky though because Honda can on-reaction headbutt or buttslam. Outside the corner backdash is a good option because if he does hands anyway you get free s.hp/s.hk xx gg/ultra. Some hondas like to EX Headbutt to catch that but U1 punishes it on block so it’s really not worth it for him to try it unless he’s desperate.
soooooooooo i was just taught that you can punish guile’s FADC backdash flash kick w/ rolling thunder.
…so you can… Hmmm…
Shame you can only punish Sonic Boom’s from half screen.
And I find it ironic that to punish a Sonic Hurricane you have to do an empty Ducking and then a Rolling Thunder once you come out the other side, because otherwise the Sonic Hurricane hits you out of the RT duck animation.
is it just me or does the frame data support Seth ghaving more recovery with sonic booms? I can Rolling thunder Seth out of booms but not Guile.
As for Guile i find it important to some how get a lead, and then out turtle Guile.
Seth has a lot more recovery on his fireball than Guile. I think he has Ryu’s recovery or worse.
Ken’s recovery.
Alright, I updated the first post with East’s amazing Guy writeup.
Again guys, I’m only updating the OP with full writeups. If you think you’ve got a good writeup, PM me to make sure it gets up there.
Can someone explain how to use EX Thunderbolt vs Dhalsim or, even better, provide a video playing a Dhalsim where they use it to punish fireballs? Because I’m a little confused about it.
I tried and gave up.
Sorry for the late, late, late match-up analysis. A myriad of things kept me from getting this one out faster, namely, moving, blazblue: CS, and laziness.
This week’s character is E. Honda
E. Honda in Super Street Fighter 4 is good–no, great. His tier list position and specs show he is obviously one of the better characters in the game thus far. His strengths are numerable, high life, ridiculous defense, hits like a mack truck, and a great many options off of just a few moves.
E. Honda?s Gameplan
Gameplan
[details=Spoiler]Honda?s strengths lie at the crossroads of his great defense and punish ability. He can wait for you to make a mistake and then easily punish you for ¼ to 1/3 of your life, and ½ if super is thrown into the mix. All he has to do is get a life lead, and thanks to the large amounts of chip on his special attacks, it?s a very simple task. Then the opponent is tasked with the problem of trying to get in on Honda to steal the life lead back. Problem is, Honda is made to keep people from getting in and keeping them out.
Although Honda is primarily a charge character, he has cross-up ability in not on his butt-slam but an air normal as well. This may not seem like much of an offense at first, but a multitude of Honda?s moves are untechable knockdowns. This makes his offense for stealing life back easier in that respect. He also has a command throw [and an even better version of it as Ultra 2], which add to his okizeme options to keep you guessing. And once he gets the life lead back, he just sits and punishes your mistakes all the while keeping you out. [/details]
E. Honda?s Ultra’s
Ultra 1
[details=Spoiler]Ultra 1
This is Honda?s headbutt Ultra. It?s not comob-able, except in very exact situations, because of it?s long start up [11 Frames [1 +10]] so chances are if you?re seeing this picked They person is going to use it as a punish of some sort. That being said, don?t get hit by it. Taking 510 damage from an ultra can be detrimental in the match. It should also be noted that the start-up is completely invincible. As long as you don?t try anything too crazy, your opponent should have an incredibly difficult time in using this ultra on you.
Ultra 2
This is Honda?s grab ultra. Fear it. It?s technically a zero-frame throw ultra [actually 1 frame cause of the black screen] but if you are close to Honda, it will beat Everything you have. Thankfully it does not have amazing range, just normal throw range. Most often Honda will FADC their hundred-hand slap in order to catch the opponent sleeping and ultra them. It also does great damage [450 to be exact] which makes it all the more reason to be feared. [/details]
Honda’s Specials
Specials
[details=Spoiler]Hundred Hand Slap
Hundred Hand Slap is a move you?ll be seeing a lot out of Honda, and rightly so. At worst It is +3 on block [at best +10 on hit]. It does great chip damage [35 if the heavy version is blocked]. It?s combo-able into and out of, pushes the opponent away from Honda, and builds decent meter. It can be buffered off of a c.lp poke so be wary of Honda is throwing out his pokes. Also be wary, because it can be canceled, even if you block, it Honda might FADC it early on and try to grab you, etc.
Sumo Headbutt
Honda?s headbutt, that sends him flying across the screen. It has Armor breaking properties and can be super cancelled. On paper, this move looks terrible; At the lEast 8 frame start up, and horrid recovery [lp: -9, mp: -13, hp: -16, EX: -8] but the problem is, that Honda is pushed so far back away from his opponent, that normally the distance makes it safe, unless the opponent has an attack that moves them forward quickly. One final notable thing is that eating one of these is an automatic 200 stun [It does scale normally however] and if you block one, the chip damage is equal to being hit by a fireball [40 damage]
Sumo Smash
Honda flies up in the air, and uses his massive cheeks [not his face] to squish you into the ground. If you are hit by this, it is an untechable knockdown. It also has good invincibility on the way up [Frames 1-12], and if you just block it, the move is relatively safe [At worst it is -3 on block]. It should be noted that this attack CAN be focused and punished with a focus attack, which is why you won?t see a lot of good Honda?s abusing this. Also on the way down, it is punishable, so a normal anti-air attack on the way down will stuff it; however I believe the focus is your best bet against this one, as the invincibility frames make this move a little deceptive in trying to score a hit before Honda comes down.
Oichio Throw
Honda?s command grab. If you know it is coming, you can just jump away [even from crouching] because it has a 5 frame start-up. Your best bet though, is to not let Honda get too close to you while he is on the offense though. All three versions have decent range and all do good damage [lp: 180, mp: 190, hp: 200]. As noted before, It is a common trick that Honda will try to Hundred-hand slap, FADC, Oichio Throw if you block the slaps. This move is highly punishable however. It has a whopping 41 frames of recovery, so catching Honda whiffing this attack is a good punish. Honda?s in the corner will often do this attack to build meter. If you have an attack that reaches far across the screen quickly, punish them accordingly.
Shikofumi
This actually isn?t a special attack of Honda?s, it?s just a unique attack, but I wanted to note it hear because if you don?t know about it, Honda will trick you with it. It is an overhead stomp, that can be canceled out of by another special attack. This is important to know because if Honda catches you trying to block it, they will cancel into the Oichio throw. When you see this move, do a reversal move [preferably one that has some invincibility to it] to stuff it.
Super Killer Head Ram
This is E.Honda?s Super. It?s great because it?s cancellable from his special attacks, has at most 13 frames of invincibility [lp: 13, mp: 12, hp:9] and hits twice [which gives it a pseudo armor break property]. All by it?s lonesome, this attack does 400 Damage, when you put it at the end of any of Honda?s combo?s chances are you?re losing at lEast half your total life bar. Chances are you?ll only see it in a combo though.[/details]
E.Honda’s Normals
Normals
[details=Spoiler][List][]Like Guy, Honda has a 4 frame jab, but there is a problem: You will never beat him in a jab war, even if you have a 3 frame jab, and here?s why: http://otersi.com/00_interesting_frames/honda_cjab.png
[]If you need an further explanation, look at the comparison: http://otersi.com/00_interesting_frames/jabcomparison.jpg Also he can buffer jab into HHS.
[]Honda?s best pokes include his s.hk, s.hp, and c.lp
[]Despite looks, Honda?s sweep is not punishable [on block it leaves him at +2]
[]Honda doesn?t really have a decent Ground to air [he can EX Headbutt however, using the invincibility to eat through your attack]
[]With the exception of his far s.hk [-7 on block] Honda?s normals are pretty much all safe on hit and block.
[]The best way to play footsies with Honda is to stay just out of his range and punish the whiffs [from hp and hk].
[]Honda?s Jump Up hp will stuff any jump ins, but he has to see them coming to get in the air as well to punish.[/List]
[/details]
Match-Up Evaluation
Match-Up
[details=Spoiler]I think this fight is 6-4 [Perhaps closer to 6.5-3.5, but I?m trying to keep it with whole numbers]
Honda has all the tools to keep Dudley out [The pugilist?s biggest obstacle] nearly everything is safe. Your best bet is to, again, punish whiffed hp?s and hk?s in the footsie battle. If Honda get?s pressured his reversal is the EX Sumo Headbutt, so keep an eye out for that. Also be very careful in getting close to Honda when he wakes up, his Oichio throw gives Dudley problems, but it is bait and punishable. Smart Honda?s will be using Ultra 2 against you, which means once they get it, lp mgb block strings and duck strings are heavily punishable. Because of Honda?s weak defense from air attacks when he?s on the ground, try to sneak in a jump in every so often [especially if he doesn?t have meter]. With good reactions, full screen headbutts can be punished with your s.hp, and whiffed Oichio?s in the corner to build meter are EX mgb-able. Keeping Honda off of his chage is another good thing you can do in this fight. When the match starts, back up and make him have to come to you. Also, Rolling Thunder is your best bet in this match, because if Honda does do a headbutt, any version is punishable with ultra on block. Honda also has a piss-poor backdash, so if you catch him doing it a lot, you can f.mk [option select: Ultra 1]. If you get in on Honda, give him hell, because of his iron clad defense, you don?t know when the next time you?ll be able to do so again will come. [/details]
E.Honda Interview
This is something new I will try to do. To accompany all the information presented here, I will try to interview a reputable member in each character?s own community, to get their take on some of the character and match-up information. This is done via a question and answer format.
Mr.SNK
Spoiler
[Quote]
East : Hey, It’s East from Shoryuken
Mr. SNK : ahoy
East : All settled in?
Mr. SNK: think so
Mr. SNK : Fire when ready.
East : Just so you know why I’m doing this, I’m a Dudley player and every few weeks or so, I do an indepth character analysis. I’ll pick up the character, and try to learn things from the other end, instead of always playing against them. To go with the work I put in, in trying to learn a little about the character, I try to get a prominent member of that character’s community to shed a little light on the character themselves.
Question 1: Why E.Honda? Or rather “Why do you play E.Honda?”
Mr. SNK: Why E.Honda… Well let?s take this back to around 2003. Some old guy named Cigarbob had gatherings at his place for ST and I would show up from time to time. Now I’m thinking cool it’s just SF and it’s a simple game right… Wrong. I got beat at lEast a thousand times and I tried jumping from character to character and was told you find one toon that suits you and stick with him. So years down the line when 4 came out I thought to myself well lets go fatty we have some work to do and to my surprise hold downback and abusing hands pressure still works. Also at the end of my match there is nothing more graditfying than someone saying wtf I just lost to Honda.
East: I like that term, “toon”, lol
So then Question 2: What do you think are Honda’s Strengths in Super Street Fighter 4?
Mr. SNK: His raw damage for starters. I’m a huge fan of waiting till my opponent makes a mistake so I can score a critical blow that turns the tide in Honda’s favor. Secondly, his Iron clad defense. I like to consider honda a Castle Gate because in my opinion he had the best defense in the game. You cannot approach him once he’s in the lead. 3rd, He’s a monster when it comes to building meter due to his HHS pressure if you chip them they take 35 damage and you get a 1/4 a bar and if it lands you get 250 damage and close to 3/4 of a bar. And last… His normals. His normals alone will keep him in the ranks or High B Low A- tier.
East: lol, trying to learn hhs slaps consistently was probably my biggest problem, but if you catch it in a match, it definitely hurt. I played a friend of mine and he said every time he got hit, he felt so devastated.
Mr. SNK: It’s demoralizing. If I know someone will eat chip I’ll go into carwash mode and clean house.
East: Do you Piano? Slide? Press 1 button really fast? [If you do this, my hat is off to you] I can’t piano from jab to heavy so I jab, then do reverse and then hp
Mr. SNK: That’s my method. lol
Mr. SNK: jab roll back 3 then fierce
So Moving on, Question 3: What do you think are some of Honda’s weaknesses?
Mr. SNK: Rufus. Next question please. Ok, I kid, I kid. Alot of his moves have really bad recovery and slow start up. Honda in that sense hasn’t changed in the past 20 years. People who can run away and force Honda to go on offense or people who have an amazing wake up game. I.e. Rufus give Honda a really difficult time. People tend to complain about cross-ups but in 4; Auto-correcting is very easy and takes little practice. But more importantly having the patience to do so is what hurts Honda quite a bit.
Mr. SNK: hrm… maybe I should have said characters instead of people. lol
Question 4: So I’ve heard a few people who aren’t truly satisfied with Super 4 say that something they don’t like about the game is that it doesn’t allow you to pick a character and have different play styles. It’s as if the character themselves are the playstyle and that you basically pick a character based on that. I’m not exactly a proponent of that statement, but how do you feel about it, and do you think honda has a variety of different playstyles? [Ex. Turtling, Rushdown, Keep away, etc.]
Mr. SNK: Personally, I feel that you need to play Honda in all three fashions simultaneously. As a Honda player you are at a disadvantage compared to most of the cast (He doesn’t have DP into Ultra) and thus need to be thinking on the fly and adjusting to each situation. Am I going to Turtle while I’m in the red? Chances are no but If I see someone has a weak defense you can bet your bottom dollar I’m going to move in and give them grief till the round ends. So in short stay open minded with him.
Mr. SNK: Honda is basic enough for everyone to use, it all rests on who using the arcade stick to move him around in the end.
That leads us right into question 5: Knowing that you have to adapt to your opponent, what do you feel is E.Honda’s “gameplan”? When you start a match with Honda, what is your general strategy? [Ex. Guy wants to put character’s into the corner, Ibuki wants to start the vortex, Dhalsim want’s to keep you out etc.]
Mr. SNK: Oh this is a fun question. lol It’s character specific really. Say against Chun you want to build super as fast as possible and then start trading hits or beating her moves out with jump in’s so you can deliver the coup de grace in end with super. Or against Akuma You need to start walking fwd but stay just right out of his sweep range and fight him. It comes down to adjustment imo, I let the cards fall most of the time. My only gameplan is to either end the round as fast as possible or make the timer say 00.
Mr. SNK: I could be generic and say score big damage and run away
Mr. SNK: but that doesn’t work against better players
East: So would you say that generally offense or defense is more suited for Honda?
Mr. SNK: Tough question, Because I walk up and tick Block
Mr. SNK: He’s right in the middle. though he has a stronger defense his tools allow him to attack and stay guarded
Switching gears a little bit, Question 6: What would you say are the absolute things to know and remember when playing as Honda?
Mr. SNK: Back to work. Block, Block, Learn when you need to hold a charge, Becoming consistent with HHS. spacing out jab Oichio, Not FADC’ing every time you get two bars, Use and learn the timing of all 6 buttons, meter conservation and most importantly BE PATIENT.
Mr. SNK: Theres more if you want. Most peeps like to keep it simple
Mr. SNK: But that should be enough to get the picture.
East: Indeed.
Question 7: This next question might be a little more of a challenge for you, depending on if you’ve used other character’s or not. What do you think are the important things to know and remember when playing against Honda?
Mr. SNK: Zone that fat bastard the hell out, if he walks towards you that means he lost his charge and you can try to duke it out with him but risk trading hits.(And in that case Honda is a used car salesman, each trade is always in his favor) Focus Attack his sumo splash as it’s descending, I’m actually sick and tired of watching people get away with Sumo Vortex (Inside joke) So please stop Honda from doing it. Punish his fierce and roundhouse if he whiffs them and don’t be afraid to focus those attacks either. Just be careful if he decides to jab. If you have a good Vortex use it or just Pick Rufus… P.S. Don’t give your health away and play smart.
East: I actually played two Honda’s in a tournament this past weekend, and one of them just started buttsplashing like it was going out of style. I tried grab and that didn’t seem to work. Then I ex uppercutted. Focus attack is much better, less meter wasted. I never thought of that though.
Mr. SNK: That’s why it’s the Honda Vortex, because if they can’t stop it than neither do you. lol
East: rofl
Mr. SNK: I seen this one video on youtube that killed me
Mr. SNK: this guy was like I don’t have to pay 40 dollars an hour to learn SF
Mr. SNK: [media=youtube]azC8ECFLCE4[/media]
East: XD
Question 8: I have heard unconfirmed rumors of an arcade balance patch coming to console, but if it was to happen, are there any things you would like to see changed about honda, outside of him getting a shoryuken?
Mr. SNK: good question, I would actually like to see something to make his Ex-Oicho worth using. Maybe make his Standing fierce a bit faster since they already toned the damage down. Oh yeah and I’d love to slap the living **** out of whoever made his U2 grab range the same as his normal throw. Tone down his U1 damage but make it come out in 9 instead of 11 so he could have some time to punish instead of having Super Human reflexes.
East: Luckily there’s only 2 questions left.
Mr. SNK: Woo!
Mr. SNK: I have to admit though, this is really fun.
East: lol
East: So let’s hop right back to it, so you can get back to kicking back.
Question 9: What are your thoughts on the Honda Community? Not just the top Honda’s, or the bottom Honda’s but all the Honda’s [that’s a lot of big sweaty men…]
Mr. SNK: The community.
Mr. SNK: Before I answer this have a gander at this thread.
Mr. SNK: http://shoryuken.com/f256/anyone-else-notice-honda-threads-seem-more-civilized-than-others-247404/
Mr. SNK: Kinda like letting the work speak for itself.
East: Nice!
Mr. SNK: Ok now with the question. I feel that our community has it’s ups and downs. While we have quite a few lurkers each one of us puts out time into learning and helping each other out. I talk with Mike and SidtheSquid on the frequent about match-ups and our board would be nothing without the help of everyone.
East: Honda’s next costume should give him a top-hat and monocle.
Mr. SNK: I fully agree.
East: lol
Mr. SNK: I’d love to rough someone up in style.
Mr. SNK: Almost all honda players are laidback and humble
East: So can any E.Honda player actually eat 100 Cheeseburgers? Back in the day, I heard that was one of Honda’s accomplishments in his character profile.
Mr. SNK: I don’t believe they can. Most Honda players are Either Black, Bald or Skinny. It’s sort of like a pre-req to play Honda.
East: lol
Last question Question 10: How do you feel about the Dudley vs. E.Honda match-up?
East: [Don’t be afraid to pull any punches. I got told to my face during a tournament by NC’s best player that I lost at the character select screen… so sad.]
East: btw it was SlickRick [A Honda main]
Mr. SNK: 7-3 Honda. But on a realistic side 6-4 Honda. (If both players know what they are doing) Dudley has a strong set of normals and can punish all blocked Headbutts with U1. But I feel you have to be ultra aggressive in the match and mind fuck the Honda player.
Mr. SNK: I was able to play marn in a few matches and I barely stole rounds from him.
Mr. SNK: You just have to use all of Dudley’s tools and try not to get reckless.
East: What do you think E.Honda’s got going for him in this match-up?
Mr. SNK: Dudley needs to get in to do damage.
East: that’s the hard part, lol
Mr. SNK: Honda’s normals are a little bit better than Dudley’s plus he has ways of keeping him out.
Mr. SNK: Dud’s Elbow is nice but you can Focus and or Ultra it.
Mr. SNK: So most of his tools are taken away, which in short establishes the match at 6-4
East: Oh, yeah. In that match-up [Dudley v. Honda] what Ultra do you feel Honda should use and why?
Mr. SNK: Hrm… I’m firm with U1. I feel it’s Honda stronger Ultra but in reality you should be using U2 against him. U2 will Stop Dudley from acting a fool when he gets up close.
East: lol
East: Dudley acting a fool.
East: Well, in truth that’s really all I’ve got. Is there anything you wanted to say, or any questions you had for me?
Mr. SNK: Eh, I’m really bad with the cross examination part. So I think I’ll close it here.
Mr. SNK: Wait wait
Mr. SNK: DOOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSKKKKKKIIIIIIIIIIII
East: rofl
Mr. SNK: Thanks for your time man, this was really freaking fun and I’d like to do it again sometime.
East: Okie doke, well I really appreciate you helping me out with this, and taking time to answer my silly questions. As kind of a parting gift, for all your time and effort, you get to pick the next character I play.
Mr. SNK: interesting.
East: On a side note, I think it would be fun to have a podcast where two prominent members of the community talk about character match-ups but I don’t know how to do that.
East: Oh yeah, It can’t be Honda, Guy, or Dudley
Mr. SNK: Well I’ll keep it simple. I tell everyone who wants to get better to play Ryu for two weeks.
Mr. SNK: that sounds really wicked
Mr. SNK: Post up about it and see who can help out on SRK
East: I will. Perhaps it’s something I should suggest to Kiets and Skisonic.
Mr. SNK: They’d bite. It’s solid for the community.
East: It’s funny you mentioned ryu, he is my secondary for guile. lol
Mr. SNK: lol
East: This’ll make the learning the character part a piece of cake.
Mr. SNK: Ok lets make ths fun then
Mr. SNK: you have to fight on the ground and can only jump when it’s in your favor
Mr. SNK: =p
East: so when I get a knockdown?
Mr. SNK: Or over a projectile
Mr. SNK: Basically break your mp and mk button
Mr. SNK (11:36:05 PM): like I break downback
East: rofl
East: Okay, i’ll keep to that promise then. I’ll talk to some folks on SRK about the idea for the match-up discussions podcast thing. In the mean time, when I finish the write-up I’ll let you know and link you to it so you can see it if you’d like.
Mr. SNK: for sure man! good luck and thanks!
East: Again, thank you. Not get back to chillin and have a nice night!
Mr. SNK: Rgr
[/Quote]
Well there you have it, next time [much quicker] will be Ryu! Hope you enjoyed it!
Remember if you have any suggestions, drop me a line via PM!
-East
P.S. for character count purposes, if this is posted to the OP, you may wish to consider cutting out the interview.
You can definitely punish EX Headbutt with RT, it needs to be a reversal though.
that’s what I get for relying solely on frame data, lol
The frame data is right, it’s just that ultras that are done as reversal are 1 frame faster for some reason.
I’m nto sure if you should be focusing honda buttsplash with dudley. If they’re right on top of you half the time you’ll teleport behind them when you let go of your focus, making you eat grey damage, whiff your FA, and definitely eating some extra damage to boot.
I was just playing online a bit and found something that needs some testing. Since we’ve been talking about rolling thunder vs bison. I was wondering. Can we react to teleport with rolling thunder and have it hit? Second wake up ex devil reverse if they do that and you dash back rolling thunder will it catch them or can they fly away far enough to not get hit.