Did you use same character yourself both times? Or maybe you didn’t push Cammy in the corner all the way. You can only do this with walking. Or maybe (and I think this is the real reason) SA connected from a slightly different range because of that neutral animation hitbox change I told you before.
I was controlling the ‘victim’ and had the opponent use a recording. I think I pushed her all the way in the corner… I used Cammy all times. Her foot was at 1.2 squares every time. Just like your Ryu. I also didn’t use standing animation but I was holding down back. That doesn’t change during the whole ordeal. Maybe that is why we got different results. I don’t have the time right now to retest everything. But I will some time later this week.
BTW, I like these little back and forths. That way, whatever the endresult, we will be more than 100% sure.
You must’ve checked with wiki shoryuken. If you go to eventhubs, they’ve got the ex-hooligan down as 63 start-up, which makes sense. Ex-hooligan is basically the same flightpath as hk hooligan (49 frame start-up) but with a higher flight allowing it to easily go over all fireballs thus the extra 14 frames of start-up. If they’ve genuinely nerfed ex-hooligan by 10 frames. This makes it the same as old spin knuckle: you have to be psychic to land it. I don’t think they would be that cruel…would they?
Ok…not sure if this has been mentioned, but I believe there are less recovery frames on her cstrike. In vanilla, it was difficult to land ultra after a tkcs unless it was the EX version or meaty. I can land U1 everytime after a tkcs.
I found it out on accident, but here was my setup:
My jump in attack was blocked. I instantly went for a cr.lp into a tkcs > U1. I meant to do EX tkcs, but messed up. Lol.
When I saw that ultra connected, I spent about 20 min in training with this and landed it each time. The tkcs cannot be delayed.
Now that’s a buff I never expected to see. Backdash was 22 frames. I wonder how much invincibility it has. In SFIV it had only 6 frames, while everybody else had 8 (El Fuerte had 7).
I just tested if it’s possible to hit a standing HK after regular tkcs. It is. St. Hk has a 9 frame startup, and I think Ulta 1 hasn’t got a different startup. (still 10 frames) The timing still feels the same to me. According to my calculations TKCS to Ultra should not be possible in Vanilla. But it is. Perhaps the data I used was wrong. (the Wiki frame data) or perhaps they did change something. I still haven’t found the mistake in my calculations. But testing has proved them wrong. If someone with some 733t math skills can maybe point me to the mistake?
*edit: I realized it’s most likely that they changed the recovery to 4 frames for all TKCS. That it would be the same for all air attacks: 4 frames recovery on the ground. I just can’t prove it…
You were wrong when you counted recovery for CStrike as 5 + 4 landing frames.
I believe the recovery is 5 + 1 landing frame. That way counterhit CStrike, CStrike is impossible. I think you can block during that one landing frame, but not jump or attack.
I tested this long ago when I finally got to see a 60 fps video of Cammy. Remember the vids from Korea, where Poongko played Cammy? The build shown there was old, but it doesn’t matter (you’ll see why later).
First, explanation:
red frames=active frames, green frames=recovery, violet frame=landing frame, blue frames=startup for cr. Lk (11 frame is first hitting frame), black frame=second hitting frame (the hitstun or blockstun in SFIV shows up on the very next frame, after hit, so in this case second active frame).
Notice that Cammy never goes to neutral during that recovery. I am probably incorrect about recovery being 5+1 (it can be 4+2, or 6 or any other combination) but you can clearly see that it is not 5 + 4, as you thought.
Thanks Carpark! You’re a lifesaver. I’ve been trying for weeks to figure this out. I just had no idea how many active frames there were in CStr. Anymore pictures where you got this one? I think I have the whole thing figured out now. I also used the eventhubs and wiki framedata, but also this one: http://www.gdward.plus.com/cammyframes.txt
This is how I think it works now:
regular TKCS
startup 16 frames (4+11+1) - hits on frame 16 from neutral.
active 2
recovery 5
ground 4 (3 of these ground frames overlap with the recovery frames)
Blockstun 15
hitstun 18
advantage on block +9 if you want to block (15 blockstun -1 active frame, -5 from recovery, no landing frame deducted/2 landing frames coincide with the rec. frames.)
advantage on block +8 if you want to attack (15 blockstun -1 active frame, -5 from recovery, -1 landing frame [3 landing frames coincide with the rec. frames.])
advantage on hit +12 if you want to block (18 hitstun -1 active frame, -5 from recovery, no landing frame deducted [2 landing frames coincide with the rec. frames.])
advantage on hit +11 f you want to attack (18 hitstun -1 active frame, -5 from recovery, -1 landing frame [3 landing frames coincide with the rec. frames.])
Here are the new frames. This is for when you want to follow up your TKCS with an attack.
0 neutral
1-4 jump
5-15 startup CStr.
16 first active frame CStr. (Hitstunned (16+18) until frame 34)
17 second active frame CStr.
18-22 Recovery frames CStr.
20-23 Landing frames (Recovery frames and landing frames overlap)
24 ? 32 Ultra startup frames
33 Ultra’s first active/hit frame
There is a 2 frame window to successfully land the Ultra1 after TKCS. Frame 33 and frame 34. And that feels about right with my findings in training mode.
Hitstun = 18 (16+18 = stunned until 34 frames)
Blockstun = 15 (16+15 = stunned until 31 frames) I think this also means that grabbing immediately after a TKCS is a bad idea because your opponent is still in blockstun.
Thanks again Carpark. I think this should cover the TKCS framedata if seen as one single move rather than a series of moves. It turns out you can follow up a TKCS with every single move Cammy has that is as fast as the Ultra1. And that’s almost everything.
that opens up so many more options against players that love to tech throws. if you train your opponent to tech your throw attempts after a blocked cr.lp/cr.lk and have U1 stored, you can now hit confrim into U1 without meter when landing a tkcs. that info will either makes players scared to o/s a tech throw and just eat a throw. adds a good dimension to her pressure game and let’s you save/use your meter for other reasons.
I can get you a lot of pictures, because Poongko did like 342 CStrikes during those matches, but usually he would go for a grab, or neutral for a few frames, or do another CStrike. The one I posted was the best, because he does cr. Lk right after recovery.
Yeah, either they cause more hit and block stun or she recovers faster, either one. It has to be. I can combo Ultra 1 after an EX Dive Kick from SO MUCH HIGHER than before. Like I can nail someone standing in their chest and still have it combo. That NEVER worked before. Something is definitely different.
And I saw that on the dashing frames thing, too! I noticed her Backdash was shorter, and I got all happy. But like Carpark said, did they do that BECAUSE her invincibility lasted the shortest? Or might they have even increased the invincibility for her as well?
Damn, guess I’m gonna be Back Dashing a lot more with her now. Hahahahaha!
As is, the only thing I would want is a standing medium overhead punch like Guiles or even C. Vipers.
It doesn’t even have to do good damage, it just has to make them want to do something else besides crouch every move this character has.
Of course a better counter ultra priority or use after a focus useable counter ultra or combination attack to getting cross ups with cannon drill easier or even a fully juggle able ultra or a regular use able counter to cannon spike or the original hooligan which is probably too good would be pretty good.
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This character really didn’t need a fast back dash seeing how you could just jump over them and cannon strike to a good distance or cannon spike and if they are too slow you get pushed back a little and the back dash was already fast enough.
There’s more to “who has the best backdash” than simply who has the fastest, but yeah, it’s definitely nice.
It doesn’t seem to have any more invincibility than it previous had, but it’s possible that I just suck at testing it. I’ll try to figure out how I can test this in such a manner that is indiscernibly accurate.
See first sentence of my response… Frames aren’t everything. Frame data doesn’t represent how far you backdash relative to other characters, nor the recovery (cammy had the worst backdash invul in sf4, and we’ve not yet heard of any changes having been made to this).
Cammy’s backdash is fast but it doesn’t cover much ground and it has terrible invulnerability. She can backdash multiple times in quick intervals but creating that much space isn’t part of Cammy’s game.
The hitstun on regular divekick is the same. If there was even one additional hitstun frame counterhit CStrike, CStrike would be possible.
EX CStrike is most likely the same. I can’t prove it, but judging by our formula the hitstun minus recovery woud be 19 (24 hitstun - 4 recovery - 1 landing frame). If it had 26 hitstun Cammy would be able to combo into lvl 1 Focus Attack (hits on frame 21). It is possible but only on counterhit EX CStrike (24+3 hitstun). So, if it is not different, maybe your execution got better then?
c.HP damage nerfed to 90, and there is 1 more frame of recovery on far HK.
c.lp is now -1 on block… wait some of this data isnt right. It says that c.lp is +2 on hit but Ive done BnB a million times not to mention c.lp, cl.mp still works so it has to be +4 at least. Also tested far lk which is listed +3 on hit but far lk, c.mp still works so its +5 just like in vanilla. Looks like we will have to keep working on it.
Hmm, okay. I SWEAR it feels different. I can’t pinpoint it, but it just feels like I can EX Cannon Strike from higher up and still combo into the Ultra I. Hmm, I guess I’ll have to test it out some more.
