As much as i love bison, sometimes i feel like i HATE using him. HS=bad, dr=bad, sd=bad. hell 70% of his moves are still bad, and the only thing that pc got was a small hitbox buff, which pc needed more than that, hp pc blocked still gives the enemy a huge 2 second window to punish it, start up is still crap, oh well.
lol.
I think Bison works fine for what they gave him. HS could use more tracking and PC is punishable to all hell, but his pokes are still solid, even if they trade with jumpins.
Oh he’s fine really I don’t even have a problem with DR or PC, I love baiting people with lp crusher sometimes to see what they’ll do. A lot of the time I get a free punish on a throw whiff because they are so conditioned to being able to throw me if I toss out a PC. headstomp could be slightly less retarded is all really and cr.fierce could use a serious speed improvement.
If cr. hp were about 4 frames faster (12 right now), it would be a reliable anti air to use. If his headstomp had a bigger hit box it would solve issues too.
Overall he’s still about the same as he’s always been. He can win based on being annoying alone, but against people who know the match up very well it’s difficult to do too much.
It’s disappointing from an aesthetic viewpoint that Headstomp/Skull Diver/Devil Reverse are so functionally situational, but honestly the rest of the character is so good that I very rarely care.
I didn’t really pick Bison to do crazy high-flying maneuvers, I picked him to basically play CvS2 and walk around poking people to death. I picked him because footsie-wise he tended to play a lot of the same games as Vega with a more close-range emphasis and a slightly greater capacity to escape from knockdown trouble (or at least to avoid bad knockdown trouble by smart movement and footsies). He needs to get a bit closer to do real work than Vega does, but I think he still has a much better handle on closing that gap than Vega does in many troublesome matchups (however obnoxious Bison vs. Guile/Chun-Li may be, they’re PEANUTS to Vega vs. those two…fucking Guile was damn near untouchable) His walk speed and crouching short/crouching MK/standing MK/standing HK are probably my favorite parts of the character, way more so than most of his specials – although Psycho C-Section is definitely growing on me. :bgrin:
In that respect I am really thrilled with the new Bison, he’s still playing the same relatively boring game (not that I mind, I like my games boring, too much excitement outpaces my ability to execute), but he’s playing it much better now. I think when the authoritative tier lists start coming in he’ll be relatively high simply due to the new and improved way he plays the “walk around and kick people” game. Most of his shortcomings, I think, are very easy to work around just by playing better footsies.
There is almost no reason to use ex hs unless someone is constantly jumping in and getting predictable. Like you said its an awful move and it seems to get Bison killed more than the opponent.
And DR should have the best hit box in the game. The entire bottom half of Bison (meaning his hand to his shoulder as he is facing down) should be an active hitbox. If someone is slow enough to get hit by that they should actually die imo.
Its only use is baiting a wakeup DP (which ryus/Sagats love to try if they have 2 bars+ultra and are close to death) but i think it still doesn’t build meter until the flip in ssf4 so all a smart player has to do is check for that and they’ll know whats coming.
I don’t think cr.hp should be an easy mode antiair- if Bison has a truly reliable antiair itd be nearly impossible to attack him due to safe 2 hit scissors. But it definitely could use about 2 frames shaved off just so it isnt so ridiculously slow.
Like you have eluded to kinda there is a line between overpowered and making it good enough as not to be useless as it stands now you have to predict a jump and be right to even use that move, the move is too slow to have a realistic chance to stuff much of anything on reaction. I just want it to be useful really.
I’m fine with only using headstomp pressure in the corner, it really shuts down alot of the cast’s options to get out of the corner, you have to remember corner pressure is about:
A) Keeping rushdown pressure on your opponent
and
B) Punishing escapes
Bison is one of the only characters in the game that can do both at the same time, EX Stomp takes care of most Dragon punches that a shoto can use to get out of SK Loops, and also takes care of jump outs, while being an ok pressure move if blocked. Sure someone can dash out but they have to be weary of dash in throws and more SK loops as well, just don’t be predictable.
EX DR is also one of the best wake-up escapes in the game when not in the corner, so any whining about how it Should be used as offensive tools is really getting redundant as it isn’t what it is used for in this game.
yeah guys for real quit whining about everything he doesn’t have and start trying to take what he does have to its very limits… DR and HS are great for tagging opponets who are knocked down or trying to get outta the corner with a jump. also EX DR is great for that end of the round chip damage. Him not having good AA is minor, because his damage output is so much better in super… well compared to the cast it is anyways. His air to air is decent and alot of people(includeing me) forget about that. He actually does have decent AA just not against Rog, Cammy, Ken, forgive me if I left out some other characters that can jumping without to much fear. And you can always trade st.HK or cr.HP if you have the life lead just to keep them out a little and take a little more of their life bar. Crouching fierce is good agianst Rog players that get predicable at all, as it stuffs the shit outta his jumpins if you get it out there early. EX PC is great AA except maybe against Rog(correct me if their are any other cast member that can stuff EX PC with normal jumpins. But even Rog is taking a chance if he jumps in when bison has meter. Now with all the nerfs and buffs most of the cast stuggles somewhat with AA(especially if they have no meter) so it all kinda balances out. Another good AA that alot of new players tend to not realize is good zoning, make it look like if they jumpin that they can land on you and force you to go on defense, but when they jump and miss tag them with cr.lk scissors or a solid poke, thats how I took the first round against Checkmate in the vid I posted against him.
Also there is a tourney tonight so wish me luck guys… 
So did S.hk stay the same or no?
Another thing that seems different is j.fp seems to beat a lot of things air to ground now, could be my imagination though.
Man, I never knew bison’s shit was such bad priority hahah, Looking at these hitboxes is crazy. I am used to hdremix with red everywhere lol
Are you going to do anything for any other characters? this is really interesting.
Can you explain what you are using to generate all these hitboxes ? Also can you explain why your hitboxes for s.rh and c.hp are so different then the onesin this thread ?
No he can’t explain the first, look around you’re bound to find it but we’re just not supposed to talk about it.
As far as the second goes, I don’t want to take anything away from the OP but that seemed like speculation more than hard data.
Someone had access to a debug build and was able to capture hitbox video of almost every move in the game. The hitboxes in zeno’s thread were estimations based on his testing.
Are there images for Bison’s Focus attack? I kinda wanna see what the lower (vertical) limit is on the attack hitbox, as well as how narrow his vulnerable hitboxes are during the charge phase.
Yeah I can put them up in a bit after I get home from the gym.
The hitbox doesn’t reach the ground, it’s like from his arms down to about his thighs from top to bottom. It’s just big enough to hit people that crouch.
It’s nothing ridiculous like Abel’s focus attack hit box which is literally a brick wall.
The guile projectile one had me on the floor laughing.
That picture of that chick above me is hot by the way.
I have to agree with most of this. I LOVE playing bison, and in 4 and super 4 I have been overall really disappointed with him, but that’s because i main him in Super street fighter 2 turbo and HD Remix, and the whole character design for him in 4/super 4 is totally different. His move set seems like it’s based on bison from a later series of games, like the CVS or Street fighter EX series or something, and he plays totally differently than i’m used to. Above all, his headstomp game, and particularly his skull diver follow up/crossup shenanigans & combos game has been nerfed beyond belief in the 4 series, and that was one of my strongest tactics in ST, and one of his best ways of putting mixup pressure on your opponent. He’s lost so much tricky, shenanigan type stuff that got me big mileage before, because of stuff like that, as well as the mechanics of street fighter 4 taking a lot of emphasis off of the importance of things like knockdowns and wakeup meaty attacks, which were also a big part of his game before. His DR is also weaker overall in terms of the positioning, control, and fakie possibilities you have with it versus earlier series, which takes a lot away from his overall triciness and ability to “wrong foot” people.
His entire gameplan the way i’m used to playing him was that his formidable offence and TOD combos could win you the round off of one mistake by your opponent, and made up for him having a relatively weak offence, so he was a rushdown and risk taking monster. Now he seems to still have the relatively weak defence, aside from a good runaway tool in the teleport, but outside of combos that require much more strict execution and tighter links than before, he doesn’t really have anything that can do huge amounts of offensive damage so you have to play a much more cagey game with him and can’t go all out on the attack too much.
Also, a lot of his key normals seem to be lower priority than they should be, and his special move game seems heavily weighted towards using his EX specials, which are way better than his regular ones. I feel that doing as well with him as i did in ST/HDR would mean basically learning him from scratch again and adapting to a whole new way of playing him, as a poking and counterattacking ground based, more defensive character. But here’s the thing for me: if i’m going to learn a new character from scratch then why not just pick someone from the undisputed top tier like ryu, who matches up well across the board, and learn him from the ground up? That way i get to main a character who i know stands up across the board, and i’m not retraining myself or trying to play counterintuitively to the way i’m used to.
Don’t get me wrong, he’s clearly very good in SSFIV, i’ve seen guys playing really well with him, and his new ultra is amazing in so many situations, but it just strikes me that to do well with him in 4 requires playing him way too differently to what anybody who has mained him in some of the older series would be used to, which is a shame, because to play him that way was 100% pure fun. I’m not trying to flamebait anybody or be unpopular by posting this here, i just think that in terms of character design, as well as how he fits in with the new SF4 mechanics, the character as he is now kind of pails in comparison to many earlier versions of him, and he just simply isn’t as fun to use as he used to be.
They made super turbo bison (and vega) only once.
They have never again captured the essence of the character, all we get is fat bison or cheap knockoffs