that is an interesting thing to say.
can you explain what you mean with a couple of examples?
Talk to some Abel, Sagat and Gief players about Akuma after he loops you into the corner and then sweeps you. It’s fucked.
At least Gouken completely removes the possibility of cross up. He has to only guess on a throw or a strike.
Actually, can someone with a Capcom Unity account do a ‘Removing Akuma’s Loop’ suggestion which involves the far.LP having longer recovery rather than the far.HK having more start up frames?
Seems to be somewhere they would actually pay attention to it over SRK threads where it can get lost.
I think DevilJin or somebody did that…
I have a question for you my_name_is_better, how do you expect Gouken to land any rush palms (not just EX) when Gouki doesn’t even need his fireball game and can just walk right up into Gouken’s face? Blocked palms are guaranteed SRK’s for Gouki and the old man’s footsies are not so great.
Also, Scrub Goku Satsu, I understand what you’re saying about Akuma’s basic mixup on Gouken, but in my opinion your options after a knockdown really depend on the level of respect the Gouken player gives you, as well as how many knockdowns have occured previously and what the results were - also your health vs his and whether he has ultra. His counter doesn’t completely remove any and all other options besides demon flip, because it’s all conditioning. You can even whiff an air normal above Gouken on wakeup to try baiting the counter, and then land with a throw. You can empty jump behind him to bait an anticrossup counter, and punish with a sweep BnB. Gouken’s counter is extremely risky on wakeup against an airborne Akuma and a good Gouken is only going to throw it out in desperation.
It’s not like Ryu where he can eliminate your mixups with a safe HP SRK FADC because if you do nothing, Gouken get’s fucked while Ryu doesn’t. It’s also not going to turn into gigantic damage unless he has super or something and can cancel the counter into it (only happened to me once, and I played the guy twice in tourney). And don’t forget that Sagat and friends can autocorrect DP on any crossup tatsu that isn’t perfectly spaced, and I mean perfectly - you can still make it an otherwise non crossup jump, use tatsu, and have it autocorrected on. Again, like I said your options are only restricted by the level of respect and understanding that the Gouken shows. Gouki is like one of the best characters to punish habits with.
Ignoring damage for a second, if you look at the tools alone, Gouki has the upper hand. Like all matchups if Gouki gets behind, he has to start taking risks, and beefier characters will use smart turtling and solid footsies to try to prevent you from getting anything done. Although Gouken’s footsies are poor, his crouching normals can still beat random stHK’s, forcing you to play more traditionally. But you could say that about other characters too - even Abel can punish mindless stHK mashing with stLP or stMP.
I’d say, and keep in mind this is all my opinion, I’m probably not in the majority of Gouki players when I say this, but I feel this to be a 6/4 matchup because of the damage only. Let’s be straight up - in terms of risk vs reward, Gouken wins the fireball war if you were to engage in it. He can block your red fireballs after he throws his own at mid range, and jump over them at longer ranges. And although both of you have demon flips to counter each other’s fireball game, it will be harder for you to do this given Gouken’s faster recovery time and he will get more of your health out of you than you would from him. Against Gouken, pretend you don’t have a fireball. Don’t spam HK, don’t be dumb, exploit Gouken’s character flaws and I really don’t see how Gouki doesn’t come out on top more often.
What a wonderfully considered and well thought out post. Kudos to you sir.
your mom is wonderfully considered and well thought out.
LOL! Raunwynn is right!
lol, that shit is your BnB.
lol, its cheap, but reliable.
I understand that Gouki do not need to use his fireball game against Gouken, kyarisan, but you are looking at the match up as if Gouki is dictating it through out (which frankly he mostly does).
Gouken has options (not excellent, but he has) to create space, by his backdash or air tatsu backwards, to start his zoning game against Gouki. Gouki can not just Ex demon flip on reaction at mid-long range, since Gouken can use his angled fireball to hit, in which it will combo to palm, which pushes Gouki to corner. In this match up every mistake contributes greatly to Gouken favor, and can change the momentum of the match swiftly.
But here is the problem for Gouken, he has to guess each and every move Gouki will do. He can play it safe and gain little momentum (exchange fireballs and pushing slowly to corner, can bait Ex demon to punish with Ex tatsu) or take the risk against Gouki ( using angled fire ball vs Ex demon flip, which combos to palm to super if available, pushes Gouki to the corner almost instantly, high damage and stun, Gouken begins his corner game, but he may be forced to block heavy/Ex red fireball and Gouki can then freely Ex demon flip and begin his shenanigans ). These basic concept of Gouken meta game helps him greatly, but still they have their extreme risks as well (especially against characters like Gouki).
Like you said Gouken can not fully control Gouki, he will eventually have to deal with his wake up game (vortex or whatever it is called) and he do not have many options to escape it (occasionally Ex tatsu or Ex demon flip, both are extremely unsafe). Gouken has a good FA, good range and speed to FA lvl 2, but Gouki St.HK cleanly beats it, which removes using FA in Gouken’s game as well. Gouki basically removes Gouken tools not by using them per say, but for their existance themselves and the Gouken player awareness.
Gouken has a counter, which still contributes to his “guessing” game, makes some stuff like Demon flip dive kick (because counter can be reacted since it is not that fast [can be reacted] and does not break armor) and obvious tatsu cross ups tendered useless. But this same fact opens a new weakness to Gouken and a mix up game to Gouki ; Counter baiting. Thanks to Gouki verstile move set, from normals to specials, he has number of ways to bait counter, some stuff like wake up air fire ball above Gouken ( I think air fire ball must be Tiger knee’d) that beats counter (more like avoid it), making a not so reliable tool more unreliable.
Gouki generally has everything to make Gouken miserable up close, but Gouken still has his ways to escape some wake up games. The goal for Gouken is to push Gouki to corner using his mid-long range fire ball preasure and try his best to keep Gouki away, and goes upclose whenever he guessed right. Gouki does not need to guess right (no guessing game per say), and he can keep up at any position, but he may be troubled at Gouken corner preasure, since he has low health and teleport can and will be baited. Gouki does not need corner to win, he just need to hit you and then somehow combos to sweep.
I understand your reasoning for concluding 6/4 match up Gouki favor kyarisan, since Gouki can simply vortex Gouken through out his match. But Gouken can stand strong against Gouki mix up game. Guessing was never a good thing for any character (save guessing counters) to be somehow a core gameplay to him. Also by palming Gouki’s fireball I ment that Gouken has an option against Gouki, and simply having this option to threaten his zoning game can contribute to this particular match up.
I still stand strong to 5/5 match up (or maybe 5.5/4.5 Gouki favor, regardless) simply because Gouken has some tools against Gouki and have insane damage output.
joke post?
Some people shouldn’t be talking about match ups = /
Gouken vs Akuma is 5/5 now? No, Akuma clearly has the advantage. I play against one of the best Gouken’s in the country quite often(Guyofkailera/Jug). The match isn’t even. If you can tech throws well and turtle, Gouken is in a lot of trouble. Yeah he does a lot of damage to Akuma. So does Sagat, Zangief, Cammy, Viper, etc. The same rules apply, turtle out with safe zoning and poking until you get a knockdown, then mix ups ensue.
Gouken can definitely beat Akuma(it’s only like 6/4 or 5.5/4.5), but the bottom line is that he is a character that is essentially one giant trick/gimmick. If it comes down to a game of tools and fundamentals, Gouken is in trouble vs most of the cast, Akuma included.
Arguable 5/5 match ups for Akuma are like…Ryu, Honda, Blanka, and maybe even Sagat(The whole Akuma owns Sagat thing is blwon way out of proporiton to me). Gouken? Nah.
lol it isn’t 5/5.
Akuma’s Buttons are better st. RH, cr. RH, cr. MK are godly pokes Gouken absolutely has no answer for other than st. RH and random parry but st. RH is punishable and his parry … is well a parry bait it and he loses a lot of life.
On wake-up he’s FREEEEEEEEE
Gouken has to hit a FP to punish Akuma as random EX hand won’t help at all as it’s priority to go through fireballs is TERRRIBLE
Man … seriously i’ll drop it but it’a 6/4 in Akuma’s favor just because of how free Gouken is in ALL situations. Playing Gouken against anyone in the upper half of the tierlist except Viper/Honda is like constantly being at disadvantage.
I’m glad that they are nerfing Gaykuma’s standing roundhouse. Next they should nerf his sweep by making it slower.
first of all: i see what you did there.
secondly: why should they nerf any of gouki’s shit? he has to earn his damage, and he takes it horribly. i get the rh, f.lp, rh, but why his sweep? the rest of his options are ok at best. his c.mk is nothing compared to ryu’s in terms of hitbox, and everything else doesn’t have reach (aside from his s. rh which not only can be ducked by most of the cast, but can be punished on reaction). why don’t we just get rid of all of his options and make it so he can’t stand toe-to-toe against any character with a good footsie game?
This is like a summary of the whole thread: whining about a top-3 character being marginally nerfed while comparing him dismissively to mid-tier characters like Dictator. It would take a lot more than a slightly slower st.RH to balance out Akuma – he’s still going to be top-tier in Super.
It seems like his red fireball got a big nerf in damage. or am i just seeing things.
So, what did you guys think of the Raging Roflcopter?
I think it was AWESOME.
I think I would have preferred KKZ.
Lol @ some dude saying they gotta nerf Akuma’s sweep now. People just want him to be a crappier Ryu now I guess.