First of all, I don’t claim to be a great Zangief player. I’m a lurker of these forums, but I’ve been playing since SF2. Also, I know skill when I see it.
Let’s not focus on the negative points regarding the new AE Zangief and take a look at the playstyle of a certain unranked Japanese player: Akahoshi! This Zangief player IMO is stylistically almost the opposite of Vangief, defensive, patient and takes very few unneeded risks. This guy is SOLID. He gave Zangief players everywhere hope and it was CRAZY hype! Check out his little run at TOPANGA Cup 5on5:
[media=youtube]yVAkhGw1flI[/media] it starts at 4:20 lol
3rd round; Akahoshi (Zangief) vs. MDR (Yun)
4th round; Akahoshi (Zangief) vs. Sako (Ibuki)
5th round; Akahoshi (Zangief) vs. Kindevu (Yun)
6th round; Akahoshi (Zangief) vs. Haitani (Makoto)
Right off the bat, Akahoshi establishes the threat of the SPD after a blocked rush punch from the Yun player. Even though it whiffs, he is setting the tone for the rest of the match; Stand in front of me and you will feel the pain! Also after a NON KNOCKDOWN ex GH, Akahoshi goes low w/ cr. short(preventing the jump and BAM! SPD. He later goes on to make good use of the meaty cr. short on his opponents’ wakeup to keep pressure(threat of SPD) and keep Yun on his toes. I believe Akahoshi’s gameplan revolves around solid play, keeping his opponent guessing & approaching the fight on his own terms. His opponents MUST respect Zangief or they will get punished!
Zangief will have to work hard & probably need to adjust playstyle in AE, but this point of reference is a start.
The guy playing in the video is solid but without the knock down from green hand alot of the wake up mixups are going to be gone for aggressive comebacks so life leads will be more important. Also you can play like that when the opponent doesn’t have or is not using safe chip options. I would like to see how his style would need to be adjusted playin vs a sagat, akuma or sim. I like his stuff but I wouldnt crown him king from watching him play 4 6-4 or 5-5 matchups yet lets see what he does vs zoners.
EMP Santhrax vs AquaSilk Winners Finals GC 15 SSF4AE Singles
[media=youtube]Gn17eYu86cw&feature=relmfu[/media]
SSF4 AE: ACQUA (Sagat) vs Zangitan (Zangief) - Kanagawa vs Chiba
[media=youtube]XTg3PPAR8as[/media]
What have I learned from watching these players going up against projectile/chip damage characters?
Use the empty jump more to create a guessing game and try to hit a SPD when landing. This is similar to Zangiefs’ mixup after the new non-knockdown EX GH, where you can cr. short/block/SPD(gamble).
St. Roundhouse is a good advancing tool for landing that buffed SPD.
As shown in the third match vs. Sagat, a perfectly spaced EX GH when your opponent is cornered is a good pressuring tool & will obviously blow through projectiles.
Sure, the match is almost reset if the opponent backdashes your SPD attempts, but it just forces you to keep advancing & pressuring while playing smart.I think it’s a new way to play this character w/o the vortex/untechable knockdown and will force Zangief players to take calculated risks & play smarter.
TBH, this is how Zangief players should have be approaching these MU’s since vanilla. I disagree that EX hand is good pressuring tool against Sagat in the corner. The threat of it is nice (not quite so much in AE…) but I don’t think you wanna just throw it out there, even if you have meter to FADC because Sagat can still punish with kara TU FADC U1/2.
You’re missing the point! Did you even watch the match videos I posted? I’m speaking in context of the videos I posted.
Yes, these are just the basics, but everyone was just complaining about the fact Zangief doesn’t have an untechable KD off EX GH. I was simply providing examples of alternate strategies/setups to do damage after EX GH connects. If you read what I wrote, you’ll understand these are pre-existing strategies taking advantage of the buffed properties of jab SPD.
I see very good players like Aquasilk adapting instead of complaining. In fact, he said he likes the mixup after EX GH now because good players know how to get out of the old ones! If you actually WATCH the videos, you’ll see landing the SPD is very viable now even though it changes Zangief’s game a bit.
First of all, you aint gotta be rude and condescending. Discussion and debate don’t call for that. I did watch the videos and I did read what you wrote. But the fact is that, while those matches are impressive, almost every SPD that landed could have been landed in Super. We know that there are setups after the new EX hand; we know that there are options and we know what those options are (tho it’s nice to see em put to use in the vids you posted). That isn’t the problem. The problem is that, as of what we know now, those options aren’t nearly as good as what Gief had in Super.
For example, at the end of the Zangitan match, Sagat threw a lot of TS in the corner and ate some EX hands for it. Zangitan’s reactions to them was great, but it didn’t seem like it made the Sagat weary about throwing them out there like he did, and that’s likely because Gief’s best option there is block, which is ridiculous considering the difficulty in landing those EX hands. And as much as I like, respect and even try to emulate Aquasilk, I don’t think the fact that players haven’t downloaded the new EX hand shenanigans yet is much of a selling point for it.
And please, don’t look at just the negative. While there has been a lot of complaining, there has also been a lot of discussion as to what new technology exists for Gief to still be a monster despite the heavy nerf. I just think people are getting a little frustrated because they’re not finding much. That’s not to say there isn’t any, though. In fact, lately I’ve been seeing Japanese Giefs making much more use of nj. HP (the punch, not the headbutt) and it seems like alternating with headbutt and empty nj makes for a neat lil mixup.
I agree that we should spend more time looking for new technology rather than complaining. AE Gief is AE Gief regardless of our manly Russian tears. At the same time, I don’t disagree with people vocalizing their displeasure with the changes made.
Giefs game after EXGH simply isn’t like Abel braindead because there are no OS’s available other than cr. lp > sweep.
On new technology, I think Gief’s game outside his “footsies” may completely revolve around U2 mixups. But the Japs in alot of MU’s are still picking u1. Outside the corner there is virtually no big risk to backdash EXGH if Gief picks u1. After EXGH (from combo, not OS) u2 beats like everything but block/wake up mash jab, but just the risk pulling it out is argh!!! This is why Aqua loves new Gief because you know, if he hasn’t told us already, he is a mind reader. true story.
First of all, I apologise for using a condescending tone. I can see you are smart & knowledgeable players. However, I disagree that every situation Aquasilk used a SPD were as good in SSF4.
Aquasilk uses the whiffed jumping knees(j. short) to move forward & pressure his opponent at quite a distance, which was inferior in SSF4. This can be seen at 1:05 in TS Sabin vs Aquasilk GC 15 SSF4AE Singles
[media=youtube]ElaFqZxvOWA[/media]
Next, Aquasilk desperately tries to get to get close to Sim any way he can by using a combination of jumping and green hands. At 2:25 he combos 3x cr. jab and follows up w/ a SPD to maintain the pressure. Zangief definitely couldn’t pull that off in SSF4.
In the following round, Zangief comes right out of the gates at 2:45 w/ a jumping forward kick followed up w/ a cr. short and then BAM, SPD. Aquasilk knows the EXACT range to land the newly buffed SPD.
If you watch closely there a great new ways to land the SPD, which I find very exciting.
While I agree that a certain amount of risk/reads/guesswork is needed to land Zangief’s SPD, Capcom has made it a little easier for him to throw it out in certain situations & be rewarded at close range. Aquasilk used st. RH and cr. forward to cover the distance needed to land a max range SPD. Sure, your opponent has options like jumping/backdashing but that simply puts your opponent into a defensive situation again. This is what I believe Capcom was trying to accomplish w/ this change.
I noticed a player named biikun go for a jab GH after his EX GH connected and it caught his opponent in a backdash for the KD.
SSF4 AE: biikun (Zangief) vs FAXgimoto (Makoto) - Kanagawa vs Chiba @ 3:20
[media=youtube]zhfCCVyeCF4&feature=related[/media]
Risky yes, but just another benefit of conditioning/reading your opponent.
So, the following can punish your opponents options after an EX GH on hit(spacing dependant, of course):
cr. short, st. Roundhouse, st. strong & Siberian Blizzard punish jumps
jab/EX GH (Siberian Blizzard?) beat backdashes
jab (EX?) SPD beats block but loses to backdash
or just play it safe & block
I think Zangief has all the tools he needs to get in and stay in. They just involve more patience, calculated risks & reading your opponent. IMO, Aquasilk is a very agressive player(like Vangief) & makes good reads but he is being rewarded for using controlled agression by getting in close. All of this is w/o the use of the KD and it’s mixup options.
I just tested it, and you need really good timing/execution to pull that off in a real battle. It will be more forgiving in AE. This will allow Zangief to tick throw from a safer distance and whiff jump attacks to land, then SPD.
I spent a few hours in the arcade yesterday - cr lpx3 into tick SPD is easy. In fact there are tons of new options for tick throws - far standing mp into tick SPD is great and it isn’t hard to judge the right range. For example max range it won’t land. Have not landed EX GH > ultra 1 yet
By the way, by walking forward after ex GH gief can straight spd some people who backdash on wakeup. So far I have done it tO rufus and sagat. In ssf4 I would dash forward but it is not necessary now for some. Needs more testing.
Right now you have to walk forward a bit after s.mp before you can CMD grab. If that changes in AE, it gives less reaction time to opponents, which is great.
c.lp x3 into tick lp spd has always worked free >_> what are people using??
Hmm good idea, I will try it. I also need to try some stuff bs bison - I had a bison flying about full screen and I tried to punish but I went underneath him, so I need to delay and see what happens.