SSF4 AE Zangief Changes, Videos, Match-up Discussion

[Korbidon]

No it shouldn’t. That is only a reflection on the players and not the charecter. There is simply no reason for Eddie to not be winning every single tournament in Guilty Gear XX AC, but it just simply isn’t happening. Despite this, no one doubts that Eddie is the best character within Guilty Gear. It is not because of technical difficulty necessarily either, as in the Japan scene this isn’t much of an issue, and basically no one on Guilty Gear is easy to play as. Only one Honda has placed significantly in SFIV as well, however this is not to doubt that Honda is a strong character in SSFIV at all. The character being weak is not the only possible reason for low tournament showings.

Henry Cen did pretty well with Honda as well

[DevilKnight]

I agree with this. It isn’t just Zangief. Vortex setups and pure mix-up centric gameplay have been nerfed in general AE…in favor of a more footsies-based, less dice-rollish, INTERACTIVE style.

And, I really can’t blame them for this approach. Makes the game less of an autopilot experience, and forces both players to THINK more (rather than GUESS).

I apologise for this, but this served as a trigger for a rant.

Watch this:

[media=youtube]krmHlGDskx4&fmt=35[/media]

This is Street Fighter 4. It’s the engine they created; what happens when you have focus cancels, instant dive kicks, ambiguous/unblockable meaty jump setups and when SRKs, Lariats etc give juggle states.

You’re very likely spot-on with the exact reason they are scaling back all the damage, creative combos, mix-ups and vortices: to create a game with a heavy emphasis on protracted, bland, bare-bones fundamentals. It’s probably the reason they made the reversal system so mashy (along with techs into neutral position) for people to escape pressure in the first place; but they screwed up with the engine.

Street Fighter 4 did not turn out as the right game to try to make into a raw fundamental Street Fighter where you have to out maneuver the opponent in the ground game 14 times to win a round, while ensuring it’s balanced.

With their nonsensical design choices, they created a game with a wonderfully creative combo system and unique knockdown/reset pressure. They should have just let Street Fighter 4 be what it is and start again, rather than obsess over controlling player styles according to their intentions with these ‘balance updates’.

I don’t think they ever understood what they wanted to do with Gen in the first place. Some vague idea involving poking using both his stances, save up for cross-up to Super to Ultra, some how find a solid way to use those wall dives. Then when people found some ‘happy accidents’ that ultimately made him playable it had to stop; because they didn’t envision handstab loops and MK x Hands removing him from being too concerned about his ground game poke spacing.

It’s clear they want mix-up/vortex characters to existing the game through low life characters like Viper, Fuerte or Akuma. I guess the problem they have is Gief having the life; but it suits Gief just fine.

Gief always functioned as the scary tank who can’t get in, but wrecked your shit if he did. With SF4s system, I can’t think of any other way for him to be dangerous up close. SPDs have been scary as hell when they took a third of your life; but in this game jump back/SRK is laughably good outside of meaty/safe-jump situations and SPDs take less than a 5th of your life.

They’ve got an end, but they’re re-drawing the means and at this point it seems to be on some bizzare assumption that walk-up SPDs and EX Hand into SPDs that don’t reset Gief into favourable situations is somehow good enough to fly against charcters like Guile at the level that the game is currently being played at.

PS. It confuses me how I see a lot of people post how SSF4 is being spoiled with option-selects, FADCs, instant dive kicks and various auto-pilot nonsense voice the desire to migrate to MvC3.

Yeah, fundamentals all the way. Absolutely no big damage, safe, herp-derp dice-roll auto-pilot vortices to be found there…

[DevilKnight]

No it shouldn’t. That is only a reflection on the players and not the charecter. There is simply no reason for Eddie to not be winning every single tournament in Guilty Gear XX AC, but it just simply isn’t happening. Despite this, no one doubts that Eddie is the best character within Guilty Gear. It is not because of technical difficulty necessarily either, as in the Japan scene this isn’t much of an issue, and basically no one on Guilty Gear is easy to play as. Only one Honda has placed significantly in SFIV as well, however this is not to doubt that Honda is a strong character in SSFIV at all. The character being weak is not the only possible reason for low tournament showings.

Say that you’re right about tournaments not meaning anything about character strength, what point are you trying to argue in regard to this?

It seems like you already thought he was #2 in vanilla, is far better than people think he is in Super, considered EX Hand losing knockdown a buff because 35 frames is a really short window to make defensive descisions in mix-ups, and also argue that the AE environment has shifted in his favour to boot.

Do you make these arguements just to object to the idea that competiting using Gief is getting harder? (we know it’s still early to say, but it looks as if it would be this way) why is this?

[bigdaddy4]

**wonders if vangief will become vabel or vonda???

But vangief is married to zangief

[Trini_Judoka]

It seems like you already thought he was #2 in vanilla, is far better than people think he is in Super, considered EX Hand losing knockdown a buff because 35 frames is a really short window to make defensive descisions in mix-ups, and also argue that the AE environment has shifted in his favour to boot.

LOL, Yeah because up-back and back back takes forever to decide to do when Gief is in the middle of jab, jab . comboing you…

Would have bought that argument if os ex gh still “WORKED”

[DevilKnight]

Your sarcasm detector picked that up, I presume.

[tokerblue]

In an environment with no Akumachopter, one less anti-air from Chun

• Which anti-air did they take away from Chun Li?

[Anemone]

Say that you’re right about tournaments not meaning anything about character strength, what point are you trying to argue in regard to this?

I’m trying to argue that perhaps Capcom had made proper decisions with the changes they made to Geif. Honestly we heard WORSE things about Geif on the jump from vanilla to super, yet it certainly hasn’t played out like that has it? No, instead Geif finally started to place at tournaments, even if it was just one player.
I’ve heard far too much “This charecter is only mid-tier, why are they getting nerfs!” Well a charecters tier placement or tournament results do not equate to how good a charecter is, nor do they equate when a nerf is in order.

Rose’s U2 got the nerf, you can no longer use it as a reversal or wakeup option as all of its invincibility options are gone. Rose went back to being a character without much of a wakeup option. Outside of Japan though you don’t really see many great Roses, and the matchup chart doesn’t favor her incredibly highly. Why the change then? Well while Rose might have not been broken, the move certainly could have used some improvments, as it quite simply wasn’t being used very appropriately and proved harmful to strategic play in general. The move deserved a nerf, and was nerfed in such a way that did not hurt rose as a charecter, but changed the useage of the move.

It seems like you already thought he was #2 in vanilla

Never said that. Said that you can’t judge a character off a matchup chart. First off, have you ever seen the numbers behind a matchup chart? They are averages of what top players feel the matchup is. The numbers are incredibly varried, and this leads to some inaccuracies within these tables. Then these charts do NOT represent the skill levels of the people using each character and how much this character is actually used in the environment, there is no scaling done on these tier list, thus making them inaccurate as any statician can tell you because they assume a tournament with every character playing at the top of its game, not a realistic representation at all.

is far better than people think he is in Super,

How do you measure what people think anyway at an accurate basis? By listening to SRK? Shit if you listen to SRK C. Viper is hopeless, despite the fact that we have several top placing Vipers consistently.

35 frames is a really short window to make defensive descisions in mix-ups

12 frames is required of your brain to react to something. Where within this time can you think about the previous choices of your Zangeif opponent and make an accurate guess as to what he is going to do? High level mixups are NOT auto-piolot like SRK likes to assert but educated guesses based on the choices of your opponents tendencies. Within this short window, it would take incredibly reaction time to make an educated guess.

assuming and also argue that the AE environment has shifted in his favour to boot.

How has it not? His bad matchups are easier, and runaway elements in general have been heavily nerfed over the course of this game. The supposed best character has a bad matchup with you, and his badmatchups have gotten so good that Tokido has stated that he feels that geif now counters Akuma, and as we’ve already seen Tokido is NOT a deer in the headlights against the new green hand.

LOL, Yeah because up-back and back back takes forever to decide to do when Gief is in the middle of jab, jab . comboing you…

If you know your opponent is going to do the same thing everytime punish it. Geif can punish backdashes, geif can punish jumping backwards. Don’t go on auto-piolot, pay attention to your opponent and punish repeatative choices.

• Which anti-air did they take away from Chun Li?

Just the command normal back flip thing. Not very big for Zangeif, not a great anti-air, but it was nerfed considerably none the less. the loss of stun is really the only major loss for her I think, not sure though, haven’t heard/seen much about Chun really.

[Trini_Judoka]

Never said that. Said that you can’t judge a character off a matchup chart. First off, have you ever seen the numbers behind a matchup chart? They are averages of what top players feel the matchup is. The numbers are incredibly varried, and this leads to some inaccuracies within these tables.If you know your opponent is going to do the same thing everytime punish it.

Geif can punish backdashes, geif can punish jumping backwards. Don’t go on auto-piolot, pay attention to your opponent and punish repeatative choices.

Agreed (as the whole world does) a tier list isn’t an exact science but honestly when you look at it in terms of GROUPS instead of whose 1-35, its alot more valuable and pretty spot on in most cases. Definitely some underrated characters but…
Despite Sagat and Akuma Gief was A- in sf4 , he was B in Super and he will be C in AE.

As far as punishing backdashs and jumps…whatever it is that Gief can do (nothing, s.hk, another GH, a jump in, Lariat or a balls out u2), renders his RISK-REWARD ratio even shittier…the one element the character actually had going for him. Compare those vs KD possibilities. Its a much bigger wheel-o-options in which Gief loses more often than not and vs a character with 2 bars makes the risk suicidal considering a game where playing it safe is generally favored over going balls out…

Less damage opportunities up close for a character that has trouble getting close = BAD

[DevilKnight]

I’m trying to argue that perhaps Capcom had made proper decisions with the changes they made to Geif. I’ve heard far too much “This charecter is only mid-tier, why are they getting nerfs!” Well a charecters tier placement or tournament results do not equate to how good a charecter is, nor do they equate when a nerf is in order.

Rose’s U2 got the nerf, you can no longer use it as a reversal or wakeup option as all of its invincibility options are gone. Rose went back to being a character without much of a wakeup option. Outside of Japan though you don’t really see many great Roses, and the matchup chart doesn’t favor her incredibly highly. Why the change then? Well while Rose might have not been broken, the move certainly could have used some improvments, as it quite simply wasn’t being used very appropriately and proved harmful to strategic play in general. The move deserved a nerf, and was nerfed in such a way that did not hurt rose as a charecter, but changed the useage of the move.

I understand your point. Balance applies to adjustments that need to be made outside of the characters competitive strength. Even if vanilla Sagat was lower mid tier, trade into easy meterless 65% has to go. In Gief’s case they are not combating something that is freakishly out of place but rather tampering with his meta game in a dangerous way, like what can happen when you fiddle with Dhalsim limbs.

Gief got by on raw power in early vanilla days, but when opponents figured out how to zone him out and shut him down, Gief players sourced the knockdown game in order to survive. Giefs entire meta game is to get in and use footsies to probe for a knockdown and get as much damage from it and the subsequent resets as he can. Chances are few and it requires great patience. It it’s place he seems to have been left with effectively nothing. How does he get back the 35%+ he lost getting that one footsie chance without knockdown momentum. Getting a tick into an SPD that leaves him practically neutral isn’t enough.

Said that you can’t judge a character off a matchup chart. First off, have you ever seen the numbers behind a matchup chart? They are averages of what top players feel the matchup is. The numbers are incredibly varried, and this leads to some inaccuracies within these tables. Then these charts do NOT represent the skill levels of the people using each character and how much this character is actually used in the environment, there is no scaling done on these tier list, thus making them inaccurate as any statician can tell you because they assume a tournament with every character playing at the top of its game, not a realistic representation at all.

I take match-up charts the way sensible people take them: with a grain of salt. I take what I agree with and use it all as a base to form my own opinion. The out-dated list on eventhubs is as un-comprehensive and debatable to me as it is to everyone else. Even in poorly balanced games, you will find different orderings in lists between different players in regards to the spots on the list that never solidified.

People all form their own personal opinion on the strength of characters from experiences and various sources. Tier lists are bases that help them do that.

12 frames is required of your brain to react to something. Where within this time can you think about the previous choices of your Zangeif opponent and make an accurate guess as to what he is going to do? High level mixups are NOT auto-piolot like SRK likes to assert but educated guesses based on the choices of your opponents tendencies. Within this short window, it would take incredibly reaction time to make an educated guess.

The brain processes information rapidly, though there are differences in speed based on familiarity, recollection and neuro triggers that have been put in place premptively. If you understand computer disk fragmentation, then this is much the same. In regards to mix-ups in high level competition, these players have been in the situation thousands of times. There is no fragmentation; they know the preferred options the usual Plan As and Plan Cs and can make descisions even quicker by process of elimination based on what they’ve observed of the opponents mentality and various connected factors causing triggers that signal the common response. These things speed up descision making rather than slowing it down and 35 frames is ample time.

When an opponent charges a focus, reaching level 2 takes about 20 frames. If they get that far, you will {very quickly after this} have already decided what you want to do about it. If you chose to block in case of a quick release, you will re-contemplate your descision when he hasn’t released and continues to charge. Experienced descision making doesn’t lag like reaction time.

Inexperience is what causes people to go dear in the headlights in those situations.

How has it not? His bad matchups are easier, and runaway elements in general have been heavily nerfed over the course of this game. The supposed best character has a bad matchup with you, and his badmatchups have gotten so good that Tokido has stated that he feels that geif now counters Akuma, and as we’ve already seen Tokido is NOT a deer in the headlights against the new green hand.

“How has it not?” It’s still the same engine for one thing, still largely the same characters designs with a great big chunk missing in Giefs case.

AE has not changed the fact that Guile has a Sonic Boom charge time so fast that he can go even with Ryu and Akuma in fireball wars or immediately put a new Boom in place of every Boom that leaves the screen. AE hasn’t changed the almost instant recovery on Booms that makes focus dashing, Hand absorbing and jumping them free punishes for him. AE hasn’t changed anything that made Guile hard for Gief.

It’s the same with Dhalsim and Chun Li. Minor damage nerfs. Sim and Chun have had long standing natural advantages over Zangief. His natural answer has been that if he gets in once, he messes their shit up. This time he doesn’t have his natural answer and their advantages haven’t been diminished. I would not expect these matches to be better than SSF4.

Sagat isn’t even getting insignificant nerfs, but buffs infact. Characters besides Gief are coming to the Blanka gangbang. Blanka and Seth are the best examples. Ryu may even be advantage Gief, Akuma should be getting nicer on balance aswell.

DeeJay is probably gonna get bad, Ken is getting buffs too, as are Adon and Hakan; Rose will probably be hard to manage without knockdowns to exploit her wakeup.

Being good against the best character doesn’t make you a good character, it’s a convenience that makes you a pocket character for the tournament meta game like Seth and Sagat were for Gief in vanilla.

As for Tokido, time will tell if he’s still reacting to EX Hand like that in 6 months time…

There’s something else you should know about Tokido:

[media=youtube]-4y78ra83Og[/media]

[iMatt]

Guys, check out at 11:20 : [media=youtube]aCODlvisjRY&feature=player_embedded#[/media]!

Trade lariat confirmed still working.

Just figured I should toss that in there.

[Anemone]

I understand your point. Balance applies to adjustments that need to be made outside of the characters competitive strength.

Then you don’t understand my point, this has everything to do with competitive play. Matchup chart and tournament results do NOT tell the whole story of how viable a character is.

AE has not changed the fact that Guile has a Sonic Boom charge time so fast that he can go even with Ryu and Akuma in fireball wars or immediately put a new Boom in place of every Boom that leaves the screen. AE hasn’t changed the almost instant recovery on Booms that makes focus dashing, Hand absorbing and jumping them free punishes for him. AE hasn’t changed anything that made Guile hard for Gief.

With Guile’s air throw nerf, getting in on Geif will be much, much easier. A well placed jump can deal with his flash kick and his anti-air normals. The loss of the air throw is a big, big nerf for Guile’s keepaway. Sonic Booms are no more difficult to punish than anyone else in the cast who doesn’t have a fireball.

It’s the same with Dhalsim and Chun Li. Minor damage nerfs. Sim and Chun have had long standing natural advantages over Zangief. His natural answer has been that if he gets in once, he messes their shit up. This time he doesn’t have his natural answer and their advantages haven’t been diminished. I would not expect these matches to be better than SSF4.

I’m sorry you have bad matchups. Get use to it, every character should have bad matchups since the nature of Street Fighter does not allow for all even matchups. Chun-Li and Dhalsim are not comparable to how bad former Seth was or how bad Akumachopter was for him. These matchups are more than handable. Chun-Li and Dhalsim weren’t hopless under knockdown against Geif, both could very easily hold their own. Teleport for Dhalsim ruins a lot of vortexes, not just Geifs. Chun-Li’s EX spinning bird was in large part a get out of jail free card that costed one meter, not to mention her amazing backdash.

Minor damage nerfs are NOT minor when fighting Geif. The difference is large.

DeeJay is probably gonna get bad, Ken is getting buffs too, as are Adon and Hakan; Rose will probably be hard to manage without knockdowns to exploit her wakeup.

DeeJay? You mean the offensive version of Guile? The one without great anti-air options? Deejay will not be the keepaway bitch that Guile was.
You can get that counterhit on Rose. Her fireballs and best pokes are somewhat slow, getting the counterhit on her won’t be as difficult as other fireball charecters. You’ll probably find yourself getting many a knock down on her.

Being good against the best character doesn’t make you a good character, it’s a convenience that makes you a pocket character for the tournament meta game like Seth and Sagat were for Gief in vanilla.

Except when you’re good against the majority of the top charecters, then you’re an assist to a player in the tournament scene.
Adon and Hakan are both weird, we will have to wait and see what’s going on with them.

As for Tokido, time will tell if he’s still reacting to EX Hand like that in 6 months time…

Like what? You mean handling it correctly?

There’s something else you should know about Tokido:

[media=youtube]-4y78ra83Og[/media]

[/quote]

Tokido is the gayest man on the planet. He has destroyed Vangeif in TOURNAMENT matches (ya know, stuff that actually matters?) at SoCal regionals through use of the akuma chopter. This really doesn’t prove anything.

[crapface]

There’s too much theory fighter going on here. I think the general consensus here is that gief will be worse without the exgh knockdown except for a couple of guys in disagreement here. Hey, if you think gief is BETTER, well go and prove it and win the next EVO with him.

And Anemone, if you want to discuss gief, at least spell his name right.

[Trini_Judoka]

AE Gief…

needs more lariat combos for KD’s (lol)
needs more regular throw in ticks
needs more ex spd to wake up oki after lp gh

Only things I can think of to “cope” Theory fighter, sorry

[chief713]

With Guile’s air throw nerf, getting in on Geif will be much, much easier. A well placed jump can deal with his flash kick and his anti-air normals. The loss of the air throw is a big, big nerf for Guile’s keepaway. Sonic Booms are no more difficult to punish than anyone else in the cast who doesn’t have a fireball.

His nerfed air throw is not that big a deal. If Guile anticipates a jump and does an air throw, he can do a jumping attack instead and it works just as well. I seriously doubt Guile’s keepaway changed enough to make that match as easy as people are predicting.

These matchups are more than handable. Chun-Li and Dhalsim weren’t hopless under knockdown against Geif, both could very easily hold their own. Teleport for Dhalsim ruins a lot of vortexes, not just Geifs. Chun-Li’s EX spinning bird was in large part a get out of jail free card that costed one meter, not to mention her amazing backdash.

Yes they were. Dhalsim teleport is easy o.s. bait. And not just from a theory fighter standpoint. It was brainless to do splash/knees o.s. hand. There aint a damn thing Sim can do on wakeup vs. Gief. It’s so free its actually kinda sad. And Chun? EX SBK can be safe jumped all day and stuffed with knees, not to mention U2. And it’s not as brainless as, say, a LP SRK because if she misses she’s gettin punished hard. Also, her backdash can be chased and punished with o.s. hand and once again, it’s not that hard to do.

DeeJay? You mean the offensive version of Guile? The one without great anti-air options? Deejay will not be the keepaway bitch that Guile was.
You can get that counterhit on Rose. Her fireballs and best pokes are somewhat slow, getting the counterhit on her won’t be as difficult as other fireball charecters. You’ll probably find yourself getting many a knock down on her.

What?? Dee Jay has an AA slide that’s almost as bad as Blanka’s and EX upkicks makes it near impossible to cross him up. When was the last time you saw Guile punish a jump in with a sweep or stop wakeup splash/knees with a flash kick? Doesn’t happen often (or at all with the sweep) And what do Rose’s pokes and fireballs being slow have to do with a knockdown? Your reaction to fireballs has to be pretty much psychic now to get a counterhit KD. And there’s no way in hell any Gief is gonna be EX Handing pokes on reaction.

Except when you’re good against the majority of the top charecters, then you’re an assist to a player in the tournament scene.

It seems like right now, people are assuming that just because some characters got nerfs that their match with Gief got better. Some of the nerfs for these characters don’t affect the Gief match much, if at all. Sagat getting nerfed to hell in Super didn’t magically make Gief v. Gat 5-5. Or even 4-6. It may end up that changes to other characters do a lot. And it may end up that they do nothing at all.

[Unreallystic]

It does look like it might be SLIGHTLY more. I believe it is currently 5 small squares (1 big square) away. So maybe it’s 6 small squares in AE? I think everyone needs to readjust the way they play gief now in that instead of just getting that knockdown, you need to push your opponent into the corner. That’s why you can fully apply pressure. If they gave gief his sweep from ST as his regular sweep that you can combo into from jabs, that would have been sweet… If they wanted him to play more like old gief, that’s what they should have done when they took away KD with EXGH.

Yeah, in essence you have to be a wall now, use footsies as a pressure tactic more so than for milking damage. Headbutts wil lforever be in style for escapes.

• :bluu:

I think Daigo is 100% wrong about Zangief. I still don’t think he’s bad; his design in the 4 series is too strong for that. But he is obviously, noticeably worse. It’s great that his bad matchups got worse, but considering that Gief got worse too it’s kinda hard to say whether Gief will actually do better in those matchups. And since lots of his good matchup characters got better, he’s not gonna have as many good matchups as before anyway. Might be kind of an uphill battle for Gief players, guys.

Honestly, I think of what characters are being ‘picked’ right now…and then I envision those characters against Gief…they are bad match-ups against Gief…wonder twins? Really? I think this has really scewered people’s thoughts.

• :bluu:

you noobs need to quit bitching. They nerfed the thing retarded about him (ability to guess right a few times in a row on wakeup and 100-0 someone that his completely outplaying you) and gave him a more solid game. Ex gh is now the same as Kens ex tatsu except they have a freaking grappler in their face. Capcom was probably just tired of scrubs jumping over and over again trying to score a knockdown and then completely guessing on wakeup over and over.

You had some decent points but throw away alot of it with just poor thinking/judgement. There really wasn’t anything ‘retarded’ about Gief. If there was he would have won more tounrys than he did (UD is saying one tourny…which was recent). If he was retarded, you’d see WAY more Gief’s online and at tournies…yet you don’t. As well if you 100-0 someone…then they obviously aren’t outplaying you. Outside of a couple matchups, just about everyone has ways of getting out the vortex without major hemorage…so they aren’t outplaying you if they aren’t getting out of it. And comparing it to Ken’s tatsu? GTFO…Ken has plenty of other effective tools for every situation, the EX tatsu isn’t the cornerstone of his offense. to Gief, the EXGH is to the FB for Ryu.

• :bluu:

[media=youtube]65vnPOftkiA#t=1m15s[/media]

Is this antiair lariat trading and then resetting the opponent instead of popping him into the air for a juggle? No one jumped at me when I used Gief, we all just assumed antiair lariat still had an awesome hitbox and resulted in a juggle, but… man, maybe not?

Hmm, I looked at it several times and it looks like a lariat to me (plus doing a FP in that situation seems kinda…‘dumb’ to me but I digress). I’m not great on the floating properties of the engine, but how much does the offensive move deligate your ‘state’ when hit? It’s possible that whatever move he wsa hit out of setup the situation, not so much the trade…just a guess :shrug:

• :bluu:

It wasn’t about dealing a ton of extra damage, it was about getting a knockdown. Even lariat trade resulted in a knockdown. I mean maybe Joe accidentally pressed st fierce, st fierce startup sooooorta looks like lariat startup, but yeah, lariat seems more likely. And if even lariat doesn’t cause a knockdown out of the air, well, I’m not really sure when Gief is gonna get his knockdowns.

Like I’ve sorta been chanting, his comboes need to switch up to hit-conirmed lariats if you want knockdowns…and yes I admit it lacks the OS-ness of OS EXGH, but it IMO will be a better combo ender.

• :bluu:

AE Gief…

needs more lariat combos for KD’s (lol)
needs more regular throw in ticks
needs more ex spd to wake up oki after lp gh

Only things I can think of to “cope” Theory fighter, sorry

My sentiments exactly…Lariat is the new combo ender for vortex options (get ready for those FADCs on the first twirl heh). And EXSPD just got a new purpose besides ‘inv frame’…since they spin an extra 360 to give you more time (though the range isn’t gdlk like jap SPD).

• :bluu:

[bp_amoco]

I think out of hakan gief and hawk gief will still have the least bad match-ups. I’m mainly looking forward to no air tatsu and improved u2. His damage is still good the vortex will need some adjustment. I think I will still be able to win with him it might be a bit harder but I’m willing to step my game up. I think he’s going to stay upper mid tier or even if he’s Lower and ends up being 4-6 vs most the cast I can deal. I like playing gief if you think you won’t be successful with him after the changes feel free to switch but I don’t see my win % going down with the total changes. Ken and fei both of whom I already have trouble with vs very high level comp ie “banana ken” are going to get frustrating.

[Trini_Judoka]

I think out of hakan gief and hawk gief will still have the least bad match-ups. I’m mainly looking forward to no air tatsu and improved u2. His damage is still good the vortex will need some adjustment. I think I will still be able to win with him it might be a bit harder but I’m willing to step my game up. I think he’s going to stay upper mid tier or even if he’s Lower and ends up being 4-6 vs most the cast I can deal. I like playing gief if you think you won’t be successful with him after the changes feel free to switch but I don’t see my win % going down with the total changes. Ken and fei both of whom I already have trouble with vs very high level comp ie “banana ken” are going to get frustrating.

Honestly i cant see how hakan is not the favorite considering he was scary as phuck when oiled but had problems getting and staying oiled in super, now supposedly fixed in AE

I’d also like some people to chime in and tell me realistically how does Gief really differentiate himself now from Hawk? His OS KD to me was the difference and PPP, but with OS KD’s gone and Hawk getting better AA tools…???

[Trini_Judoka]

Ken and fei both of whom I already have trouble with vs very high level comp ie “banana ken” are going to get frustrating.

Oddly i have trouble more vs Ken than Ryu. What buff to Ken makes this shittier for Gief? I assume Fei’s safer rekkas makes the difference there???

[DevilKnight]

What buff to Ken makes this shittier for Gief? I assume Fei’s safer rekkas makes the difference there???

The differences will mainly regard Gief. While their changes won’t have much of a direct impact on the match, in relation to how it is in SSF4: he’s getting toned down and they’re getting toned up.

[Edit]@Anemone

I put in a long post here about air throws, changes, matchups and what-not. Then I realised I’d have to sink more time responding about this nonsense. Tired of it. Most of my arguement is here and detailed in black and white already, that’s it now.

I can’t foresee the big picture of how the game will turn ultimately out or how the Gief community will evolve toward the new build. What I can do is discuss what I know so far about the game. What I’ve heard is not enough to convince me that Gief won’t be weaker than SSF4, nevermind stronger.

I think you’ll consider AE Gief a well-balanced masterpiece in the making no matter what the current info is.