According to tier lists vega is around the bottom of tier 3… after AE do you think he will move up/down this tier ladder?
tiers don’t matter. They are rarely accurate. All that matters is
-How smart you play
-How much you think during a match
-How well you can block
that’s about it… everything else pretty much falls into one of those categories.
so to answer your question… I dunno how some people come up with the current tier lists. So i have no idea how he’ll be viewed in AE. I would assume bottom to bottom - mid tier.
Im sure he was refering to Vanilla Vega. Super Vega was easily mid tear.
Tiers do matter though, part of a players succes lies with the character he uses. Daigo has always used top tier as Tokido as Mago as Wong as Valle. If you look at who they choose in thier games they always chose top tier characters. although there are a few rare exceptions where players take it to a whole nother level like Wong in Marvel 2, Kuroda in 3rd Strike, to a certain degree Makoto in Vanilla SF4, and Schaffer in SF2. Part of a players succes lies at the character select screen. How big that % is somewhat dependent to other variables.
I think that has less to do with tiers and more to do with options tho, esp since some of those characters were high tier because Wong, Daigo, etc used them
Well high tier characters have the most options. 
But I’ve always found that argument (character is high because of player X) is not really applicable in most cases except really rare cases. Ryu was top tier in SF4, and in SSF4 he was still top 10. If Daigo used Ryu in AE, sure he would still have high BP, but that’s becuase the majority of arcade players are as shitty as XBL players and he would farm of them. he certainly wouldn’t have as much BP as he does now, he would still make Ryu look good, but he certainly wouldn’t be winning as much. Top tier character are top tier with or without top tier characters or tournaments results.
If Daigo, Mago, or Wong used Vega in SF4 they wouldn’t do shit with him, let alone do anything worth while. Makoto cetianly didn’t make Vega look top tier or viable in SF4. he was just really really good and was able to capitalize of every single mistake the opponent made, which made Vega look viable but he was just capitalizing.
I see your point but like i said iono how tier lists are composed… especially the “standard” ones. As far as I’m concerned they are completely arbitrary and random. Now if you’re referring to a best of 10 matchup, yeah i can agree that the people that win more, do in fact win more because of more/better options. but then again… that goes back to the fact that I see my Vega Vs Blanka matchup as a 7-3 in my favor. That’s based on my own experience. That doesnt mean that every Vega sees that matchup like I do. See??? Arbitrary. It’s just made up. It’s unreliable.
(this more geared toward the OP than pedo) Just because someone plays a “top tier” character doesnt mean that you cant beat them… or even that you cant beat them more times than not with a low tier. Tiers, stats, even options come in secondary to solid play and fundamentals. Actively thinking during a match and preventing the “autopilot” from turning on will get you more wins than anyone who [media=youtube]sGh4ZU4H5Hk"[/media]. It just means you have to work harder to win. If i felt that it was simply impossible to ever beat daigo using Yun/Ryu or wong using Makoto/Yang/Rufus/etc then i would drop Vega instantly.
Well lets take the match up numbers. It was belived that Blanka was Vega’s worst match up in Vanilla. Was it? The fuck it was Sagat and Akuma made Blanka look like a damn joke, but one has to consider the current play style. Vega was played with a hit and run tactics game. Why? Because the Japanesse players did so, and the “top” Vega player at the time said it was the only way to win. This carried on to Super as well where White was still considered a 6-4 match up, when in reality it was more even to the other imo.
Now lets take a look at each case.
But we know for sure that Vega vs Blanka is 5-5 for sure and the average Vega in Japan employed a shitty flawed strategy against a character that had all the means in the world to beat Vega:
- White stoped any raw FBA, at a time where raw FBA was considered useful.
- Turtled and ran away better than Vega
- Had superior offense and pressure tools, do to having a more developed meta game
- Considered to have superior pokes at a time where Vega’s only move was cr.mp
variables with the Japanese
- the majority of Vega’s and even those considered good in Japan
(remember Vega was a rare character choice) where in reality not so hot, so whenever a match up did pop up it only solidified false beliefs of White being the worst match up - the amount of quality players experimenting with Vega was extreamly low, thus progress was painstakingly slow
the legitimate points along with the variables contributed to such an arbitrary number. And the following variable did not help one bit
The top Vega in the US at the time employed the same flawed strategies against what was considered one of the best if not best Blanka in SF4 (US) who had a offensive game like T SRAI but less developed. Which we knows destroys a turtle Vega because Vega has no defensive options or tools to run away because he lacks mobility to charge unlike Blanka who can run away and still charge.
So the conclusion at the time was the match up was 7-3 Blanka, because of what was known meta game wise and the 3 given variables. But towards, time and experience, dictated that the match up wasn’t as bad, it in fact could have and surely been even. The focus wasn’t even on Blanka any more as well which supports the hypothesis. It was against characters that presented real threats like Cammy, Sagat, Rufus, Honda, etc.
-Now if we look at Super, you are for sure are
- employing a very offense oriented strategy, which Blanka has a hard time dealing with.
- using moves that limit Blanka’s options
now the variables
- the Blanka in your area or you are exposed to arent really paying attention, which nets you free wins
- the match up really is 6-4 and maybe 7-3, but that 7-3 has to be on the same scale as SF4 Vega vs SF4 Akuma
So the conclusion is that Vega is definitely 5-5 with Blanka with a slight advantage because of having the tools to punish any escape, initiate an offense, for once has low risk high reward options against a character. Any new additions to Blanka’s meta game won’t have as much as an impact because Vega’s superior poking game makes it even harder for White to start an offense.
If we look at both cases, the variables eventually disappear over time forming more solid reliable tiers because the meta game is fleshed out to the maximum potential and any variables like public opinion, tournaments (inconsistent because character representation is not evenly distributed), and high level players.
So the ultimate conclusion is that tiers only apply and matter when options all options are exhausted because all characters have been equally represented by both the weak and strong, and when weak players win against stronger opponents (by a margin) with established tiers, then tiers truly develop. Thus time is the ultimate tool for tier formation.
Unfortuanetly tiers in SF4 do not so readily apply because new things are still being discovered. Discovery of OS with Ultra’s or pseudo-unblockables will impact the game over the long run. So you are correct, tiers do not readily matter in SF4 because of arbitrary numbers by a player base that still hasn’t fully developed the whole game’s meta game, but remember that they still somewhat apply. The top tier characters will be the ones with the most solid options, not the ones with the most options.
I really have to stop taking classes that make me write a large amount of papers per semester for fun. Its making my posts to long.
At OP, when looking at the if tiers matter or not argument you have to look at both sides.
If you readily allow tiers to influence your game, weakness and motivation for overcoming personal weakness, like fundamentals, isn’t there. If you don’t allow tiers to influence you will stress way to much over the game. Look at Vegaman’s example. His current choice in character is affected by tier placement, although minute, its still there.
LOL i definately know about long wall’s o’ texts as i post them myself.
I agree to an extent. Yes i’ve used an overly extreme offensive strategy vs Blanka since i learned it worked in Europe. Yes, I exploit the fact that blanka lacks many tools to escape offensive pressure. The matchup is 5-5 according to the “standard” matchup numbers. The real fact is that there are soooooo many variables that affect a match, each individual character, and each individual player that it’s virtually impossible to replicate a 5-5 matchup between Blanka and Vega.
You have:
-the fact that players do not execute flawlessly 100% of the time
-the fact that players dont always capitalize 100% of the time on mistakes
-the fact that not everyone goes for the most damaging option
-the fact that not everyone evaluates risk vs reward the same
-the fact that not everyone is competant with all their options at any given time
-the random factor (broken button, using an unfamiliar stick, lag variations etc)
See you have those factors that will affect a match far more often than the matchup based soley on “Tiers.” I guess that’s how i prefer to approach matches.
Don’t get me wrong. I’ll go and fight tooth and nail for more/better options (see Capcom-unity posts), even if i have to exaggerate a bit and ignore my own PoV. But I honestly don’t think they are the primary determining factor in matches. When I’m in a tourney and i have to fight an Akuma I’m thinkin about how to exploit this guy’s mistakes, not how hard it’s going to be. I don’t lose because the matchup isnt in my favor. I lose because of inferior play.
(may cont. when i get home… time to leave school) lol
Edit: continuing.
For matchup numbers I dont look at a reletive scale compared to other charactrers because there’s too many variables to compare say a rog vs vega 6-4 to a ryu vs vega 6-4 (iono if they really 6-4. i’m just using it as example). They arent “hard” in the same exact ways. To me Blanka is 7-3 because of his lack of options vs a vega rushdown. My rushdown is far from invincible. If you have superior reactions and execution you can beat it easily. If you have superior footsies and spacing you can completely avoid it (got shown both by Hiro). Just because something new comes up doesnt nessessarily change how I see the matchup. Everything that Hiro showed me was highly advanced and takes near perfect timing to do… and even then he wasnt 100% sonsistant in stopping my offense. My matchup numbers are completely arbitrary. there’s zero statistical or sceintific backing for why i pick those numbers other than an average win%. It’s not even something i “look” at. it’s more of a guide at how confident i am in winning that matchup regardless of my opponents’ style, experience, knowledge, or fundamentals. You cant use that in actual matches tho. Sure you can look at both and see a correlation. I’m sure you can look at how many times certain characters are used and their win% too.
When I found out about tier lists, I became shittier at every FG I played. Especially SF. I just became self conscious and discouraged every time I play against high tier characters I would destroy without any thought of what I accomplished. But during those match ups nowadays, I remain too alert over the character itself rather than the match that I just let it get to me and I choke. I’m over it now ever since I stepped my game up with new strategies, combos (which I used to never do), and reads but tier lists really fucked me up. This is why i’m gonna ignore them from now on. -_-
I sometimes wish I just played the game rather than look up on the characters I main in online forums and just put time into practicing every match up manually without looking at the odds or pre-arranged strategies as I could have just left it to my potential…the old fashioned way.
Tier lists can help in pointing out which specific matchups may need more research and/or effort put into them.
kinda sorta…
i’m sure you can find a correlation between tier and usage for a character but that’s not nessessarily the case. I suck horribly vs Gen. I don’t see the matchup enough to properly evaluate a legitimate strategy. I have to just play solid, defensive, and react to unsafe moves. I cant take unnessessary risks or even unsafe risks because of the juggle potential of all his moves. I also struggle vs Akuma. So on both ends of the spectrum there’s matchups that i’d need more “research” on.
I guessing what you mean is
if a match up is say 7-3 and one compares it to a 5-5, then one has to look at the match up and study more from it to understand if the match up really is that number. Which goes back to solidifying tiers and destroying variables.
but those variables are accounted for to much. This is how I view tiers.
-
Most important is the characters general tools and options. the more general tools a character has the better off a character is regardless of execution. FADC, Ultra accessability, Cross up tools, normals, specials, etc. So it gives us a view of who are the most efficient characters.
-
How those tools affect individual match ups. It doesn’t matter if character X has the best poke in the game if its useless against character Y. These variables help us shape who the most dominant characters are in the game
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The Engine. You can be the best fireball machine in the game, but it wont do jack shit when the engine fights against fireballs and zoning in general. And then there are defensive mechanics like reversal windows, hit stun on block, or weird hit boxes like that faggot Balrog.
then we have smaller variables that affect tiers
- character representation in tournaments
- character representation in competitive casuals
- accessibility/execution being the least important factors
So how about the world ending on Sunday folks. If the rapture really happens, that leaves a smaller population for me to control and manipulate to do my bidding. If it doesn’t, well it just makes it easier for me because i can now focus on manipulating those who believe in such foolishness to meet my goals for world domination faster.
But god would it be funny if its the atheist that get raptures from this world and not the firm believers in fire and brimstone.
@pedo
i get it but if those were really the most important overall then wouldnt every match end up the same because people would make the same decisions in every situiation?
Player decision making will easily make or break a character regardless of how powerful, how many tools, how good of tools, hitbox shapes, frame mechanics, etc are.
This is how i view matchups…
-situiations where people hold back their character and do not use the tools and abilities at their fullest
-situiations where people are held back by their character
Each side has their +'s and -'s.
it just isnt viable to leave out the player factor in matchups… yeah you can have a general strategy vs characters but that only entails options. I can sorta see how tiers can be a useful tool in beginning to intermediate level play, but there’s still so many variables that factor into matches that tiers are rarely accurate. Especially for individual sets. they are just too general to apply to various different matches.
a bit of a hyperbole but, if matchup numbers and tiers were really that accurate techically i could cheat the system by intentionally losing 11 matches in a row to guarentee success in a 4-6 matchup. Or if i were to ever fight a higher tier i should only pick whoever is top tier at the time in order to have a realistic chance…
it’s just me but i’d rather blame my losses on something that i can solve/fix/change/adjust over it being a character flaw. So, when i lose… it’s not cause Vega is holding me back from winning… it’s cause i simply got outplayed. There are certain situiations during a match where that is the case, but for the overall result… i place blame on my decision making and not my character’s weakness.
I see the problem now
we are describing different things
What you are describing aren’t tier lists. tiers are supposed to be designed around objective goals, not subjective ones like error. Tiers cannot accurately list mix ups or human intuition, thus tiers that are designed around subjective goals vary and cause a division among the population. Its not possible because those are unquantifiable numbers due to experience. there are cases which support my hypothesis like
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Kuroda in SF3, he makes the weakest character in the game good. Why? Because of his natural intuition for that game, not because he maximizes punishment. he has the ability to fully understand the game and go for the best possible outcome.
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Wong in MvC 2, he can beat anybody convincingly with any character. Why? Because of the same reasons.
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Mix up characters Characters like that are extremely hard to place. Case and point Viper. You have people saying now she isn’t top because of error, and then you have others saying she is high because of strong becaue once she gets momentum it becomes auto pilot. she is and others like Fuerte are completely based on intuition, again not quantifiable. Can be very weak, or can be extremely dominating.
From what I have defined I go back to one of my previous points. Its wrong to assume that tier lists are the final authority in this game. but its also wrong to assume that they don’t. How much that tier list applies or influences you is completely dependent on you.
So the question now is when and where do tier lists help? After all the original purpose of tiers was to find the strongest characters and drive development.
lol i know i’m not describing tier lists. I’m describing why tier lists arent really that useful by providing my example of why X character can or cannot beat Y character completely indepandantly from tier lists. You can use them as a very very very general guide.
I understand what tiers are supposed to do but really… how accurately can they show the “strength” of a character when it’s 2 people playing those characters and not 2 equivalent programs playing those characters.?
Well here is the answer.
Tiers start applying in 7-3 matches. And they definitely apply 8-2, 9-1, etc. If the tier says its 8-2 you a certain to lose. If a characters design negates all the options of another character, how can the character at a disadvantage initiate mind games that really matter? The only mind games he can intitiated is bait and punish, which we all know doesn’t work all the time and isn’t enough to scrape victories.
All 5-5 means is that he characters are equally matched, thus another way of saying, whoever has the superior mind games wins. this also applies heavily to 6-4 match ups, because human error and intution still affect the match heavily. things get blurry at the 7-3 mark, and after that to win a 8-2 convincingly you need to be at the same level like Kuroda or Wong.
I know this is cheesy but to back up my claims for the 7-3 claim can be found in chess matches vs a supercomputer. Its a common strategy for a grandmaster to apply what seems like illogical moves or moves that are based on intuition to win, but more often than not losses because the stacks are heavily stacked against them because the computer is 100 steps ahead thus negating the players options.
To provide a level of validity to my 5-5 claim chess can be looked at again. If two human players play against each other, the one with superior mind games wins, not the one with the best strategy. Why? Because both know the game, and both know the strategies, thus mind games become the most important aspect of the match.
Hope it makes sense.
it does but i disagree lol
Something to consider about the Cosmic Heel nerf: people will actually be attempting to punish it now, and probably quite a lot. If you’re using Vega, you should know the spacing better than most opponents, so you’ll have a scenario where you can mix up the ranges while still keeping the move on the safe side in order to bait a punish.
Im curious, what would you propose?
Cosmic Heel whiffs on half the cast at a range where it would be +0. The only viable range is -1 or -2, now i’ve thought about it and a psuedo mind game could be played. With a simple back dash one could make reversal attempts whiff leading to big damage. But im ive never been able to answer this question, when will that stop being a viable option? The problem is that once opponents apply the correct strategy any blocked Cosmic Heel equals an automatic knock down because of OS sweep. What makes back dashing a severe problem is due to the fact that there is growing popularity of OS Ultra among players.
I do wonder, can Vega kara cancel KKK/PPP flips with Ultra, or even a special move?
except that it’s never -1 or -2 it’s only -3 or +0 (possibly -4). all or nothing.