SSF4 AE Vega Changes

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
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  1. If your talking about CH usefulnesses in general, then you should recognize that it is very useful to counter enemy attacks in general, not just cr techs…As a matter of fact it was used to catch a cr tech only a few times and caught a cr tech once in 2 of our matches and in a range that will be punishable in AE (Though that was very well setup when you used it in the match. forward throw x dash kara forward throw x dash CH perfectly catching that cr tech attempt).

If you just watch our matches, then I am pretty sure you can count all the times and ways that we used them in, and MOST of them was not for catching cr techs. We used it to counter attacks in general, for positioning, and from the ranges that we used it at, if blocked you can get a frame trap. I believe CH moves Vega’s hurtbox a little back in the startup or something cause I use it to avoid an attack and then come back with the attack on frame 14. Regardless if it does or not we use it when we know people are going to attack back to counter attacks as well, which you can setup.

I even use CH to counter jumps sometimes and neutral jump is actually not a useful way to escape potential CH. Since CH has a high hitbox the neutral jump has to be done significantly before to not get hit. If you see someone just neutral jump you can just CH that as a matter of fact. And if a neutral jump was done while you were buffering a BHC you get a free ultra 1.

Saying that the frame trap post CH is unreliable or character specific is not completely correct. Against certain characters that are small when crouching like Vega or Sakura it may be more difficult to get it on them, but I have frame trapped both characters many times with it. I even CH frame trap Blanka. Not to mention that if in opponent is moving back it is much easier to get the CH frame trap (because of the hitbox issue) and there are setups for it that I have.

Obviously we were both Vega so playing other players or characters you may use CH more or less or in different positions, but I think it should be clarified the uses that CH has.

(For those who want reference to what I am talking about in our matches: [media=youtube]5Nzm9RWaBuE[/media])

  1. What we really lose is two main factors for CH in AE. One- we lose safe use of close CH which is used when you predict a backdash, or cr tech from up close. Two- we lose the post frame trap afterwards from a blocked CH. So I believe it can still be used as it was before except without the post frame trap benefit which will be replaced by grab reset. As for the safety of close CH being gone, you will just have to either take that risk or use some other strategy.

The hitbox seems to be fixed though to allow it to hit crouched opponents easier, so we shall see how well it works.

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@Alex

Cosmic Heel moves Vega back, makes pokes whiff, and punishes them. Cr.mk does not do this, and neither does RCF. this makes other characters weary of poking and keeps them in place.

663

Props. I love CH but fuck lol, to each his own. You’ve been there, done that so I (or anyone else) aint gonna tell you how to rock Vega. If you get the wins, that’s really all that matters lol.

Anyway, fuck CH. It’s been nerfed, we get it, let’s fucking drop it.

Let’s just talk about how to make the new AE Vega work. I ran a few games with him couple nights ago and shit was fun. Might look into getting back into this character lmao

Be productive people! Let’s find ways to make the Spaniard work.

For the record, cr.mk works well as a substitute for CH frame traps. Which is great. All that really matters is the kara throw lol. So long as you have that, and the range on all his other normals, we can easily come up with new frame traps. So yeah… lol

Any new combos?

664

Was I the only one who used cr.mk to punish cr.tech from Kara throws?

I mean like , use kara throw to bait stand throw attempts and then cr.mk > cr.mp xx walldive

I never really used ch MUCH to punish cr.tech , anyone here who plays me knows I use it really as a tool for whiff punishing.

665

Nope! cr.mk is extremely useful for things like this from my experience. Plus it gets even better in AE so there we go.

666

Extremely ignorant comment :|. Japanese internet is virtually lagless if not completely, therefore your “online scrub tactics” comment goes out the window. Secondly, if he’s so bad why is he able to beat so many high ranked Japanese players consistently? I’m very glad you noticed, his style IS all down back and cr MP, yet he’s beating good players. How do you think he’ll do with a buffed cr MP? The answer’s obvious, isn’t it?

I’m also pretty sure everyone would agree with me when I say it’s hard to get 5k pp, and even harder to do it playing against the Japanese. You have far more experienced players playing there, and you can play against anyone in Japan. You can’t rely on any of these so called online tactics either, because of the sheer quality of the internet.

On the American/Europe system you usually can’t play against all of the players in the same region with a similar skill level due to connection restrictions, and you may be able to use some online tactics because of the poorer internet quality. The PP system in Japan is far more accurate because of their internet than it is in America or Europe.

667

Moar cr.mk

668

Stop dickriding Japan. THere are so many players with 5K PP around. Points dont even determine how good you are. Joz can tell you how easy it is to get 5K PP. I can tell you how easy it was to climb to 3700 PP on the first two weeks of gameplay and keeping it. where everybody is bearly 1000 PP and losing one match cost 120 PP . Its easy.

Japan isnt this magical land where everybody is good just because you get to play Daigo or whatever frilly Japanese kid you feel like playing. Havent you noticed, Japan has a very specific player pool of great players and its small. Just like the US, just like Europe, and just like XBL, etc.

Genuis K127 is garbage, gets eaten alive by turtles, and just because he beat supposed top Japanese players doesnt make him good. You want real cr.mp game play? Dick ride Joz.

On a side note,

How much frame advantage do you have after a blocked cr.mk? If you can combo cr.mk into cr.mk (supposedly, heard it from Eternal Blaze), what is it on block? Does the frame advantage allow you to walk up ever so slightly and try and do cst.hp? And did they fix the hit box for ST? It whiff’s a lot on opponents up close and that is annoying. Any conformation on this? Since a lot of my punishment is now cr.mk xx HK.ST, I want to know if it still whiff’s at certain spaces? It will also be nice, because since MK.ST goes over mids, you can use it to stop opponents from pressuring you to much with the same strings.

Is the wall dive the same to? Different buttons for different heights?

Im also convinced that BHC start up frames have invul frames. Someone did a semi-meaty jump in, I did the move and his frames where still active and it hit him out of it. I haven’t been able to test it since I haven’t played, but that isnt the first time BHC has stuffed a move, that should have stuffed BHC.

If cr.mk is faster, looks like it, poking and whiffing it, to force a jump? Free Ultra Set up, or a free air grab, which sets up a nice wake up game or sends them to the corner. Thoughts?

@Chuck

cr.mk beat out long drawn out moves, net you more damage, but lost to jabs and faster mids like Wiyu’s cr.mp. Where Cosmic Heel beat out those moves, net you more meter, but reset the entire positional advantage you had if you guessed wrong.

EDIT:

What arcade do you go to Kouryuu? Im just getting somewhat comfortable with stick.

669

I have not followed the discussion about the AE change for Vega, but can we always do a ST after CH ? I’ve seen some replays from SSF4AE and no one do the ST but just a slide…

670

Because they are the average shitty XBL Vega, just in an arcade setting. Further proving my point that being in Japan means nothing.

671

Ok but even a shitty Vega from the XBL can do a CH to ST ?
It’s weird 'cause the game is out for almost one month, and no one knows ???

672

What XBL Vega’s are you playing?

673
  1. Cr MK is +2 on block and +5 on hit. On hit (or block) it puts you far out of range which is a good and bad thing (opponent can back dash to get out). It basically puts you at perfect kara throw range from up close. Since it is +2 you also get an immediate 2 frame frame trap with cr lp which can hit confirm into ex fba.

If you wanted to frame trap someone a little later what I use often is cr mk (blocked) x cr mk hit confirm into cr mp. Walking into cl hp range is pretty far so unless someone is really wanting to block you wont get that to hit hardly ever. If you want an in between attack of the cr lp and cr mk you can use st lk which can frame trap just as strongly as the cr mk (+2) and leaves you close enough to follow up a frame trap hit confirm and is easy to get kara throw afterwards.

  1. With cr mk being 6 frames it is going to set up Vega’s offense well, since it will be significantly easier to land it up close which sets up so much of his offense well. As for BHC setups. I have two in particular. Two cr mp (more effective on hit) x buffer for BHC and you do it on reaction or after RCF (more effective on block) you BHC buffer and on reaction you can do it.

  2. There is no replacement for CH but I don’t think players will suffer too much with new CH.

  3. I think players should try to incorporate RCF more into their game. I have found it to be very useful against many opponents in many situations. Although I haven’t found much use for EX RCF or fierce RCF (other than off a jump in into Fierce punch).

674

lol i only use CH to move around and manuever i rarely use it as an attack so i can care less. longer start up on U2 is whats really going to kill my game.

675

I’m more curious if a 6 frame c.mp opens up new combo opportunities. I believe close mp is +6 on counterhit, so maybe ch.cl.mp ->C.mk ->C.Mp -> ex fba would be possible in AE.

676

There is little to no reason to use cl mp over cr mk.

Cl mp has slower start up and can only combo on counter hit or on last active frame done meaty. It also leaves you negative on block and does the same dmg as cr mk. It also has more lag frames. It also has 2 more total frames making it slower in general. On counter hit or on meaty 2nd or third active frame cr mk can combo into cr mk much easier and is significantly more reliable.

677

Hahaha fistbump

Onto new frontiers. I’m excited to play Vega AE but probably wont’ be able to until June or w/e when they decide to relase this.

678

It certainly isn’t a magical land, but it’s the place with the highest average skill level in street fighter, and that’s a fact. You and Joz’s experiences of pp are irrelevant, like I said the American/European internet doesn’t allow for an accurate enough representation due to the problems i stated earlier. His playstyle may be unorthodox, but when you look at how much he likes to use RCF and CR MK, and then look at the buffs being made to those moves in AE, you can only imagine his current playstyle will be the way to go for Vega. Beating top players doesn’t make him good? Then what may I ask, makes a good player?

679

He isnt unorthodox. That is basic Vanilla Vega pre-console release play style. Before anybody really knew wtf to do with Vega. Dumb ass doesnt even know he has cr.mk. Its all cr.mp, cr.mp xx RCF, down back, random kara, and this is what seals the fucking deal. Random ass EX FBA like if its a safe move to throw out.

And Japan having a higher average skill level? I call shenanigans on that claim. Look at all those A-cho vids, so many mediocre people just like XBL. My god, typical Jap dick rider.

Im over this, if you think throwing out random EX FBA’s like if its a safe move is good, then may god have mercy on you. Ive beaten top players on live on the west coast, so has Joz, so has so many people on this thread. That must make them godlike on your standards. There is a fine line between really good, and just godlike. Genuis K127 is at the decent level.

BTW, RCF isnt even getting buffed, its EX. If I can TU on reaction to that move when somebody uses it in a block string, the fuck any godlike player is going to hit by it from a cr.mk cancel that screams look at me im glowing hit me, hit me.

@Alex

That’s cool, so you think the move is the same overall? Still 19 frames overall? Or its a hot 17 frames? If a cool 19, that means more stun somewhere and frametraps. If its a hot 17 then I can see a lot of set ups to force the opponent into doing something to get in. It’ll be like a moving wall.

680

Arturo/Marn/Air had the same thing to say about the skill level of the Japanese when they went over there to play. Marn even made a whole blog about it and it was received very well. From what I’ve seen I’d agree with them too. Those guys have played the best of the best and placed high in majors, I’d rather take their opinion over yours lol.