I aint trollin fp, I agree with you
Cosmic heel is pretty limited footsie move. Slow ass start up
I aint trollin fp, I agree with you
Cosmic heel is pretty limited footsie move. Slow ass start up
MOve start up has nothing to do with ability to be used in footsies or not. Start up only deals with how a move is used, or used to counter something. You wouldnt happen to think Dudley’s fst.hk/hp that lunge punch normal is a bad footsie tool to?
he has 2 versions of it and the one starts up in 6 frames and the one that moves you forward starts up faster than heel does still.
Heel would be a better move if there was a 6 frame version you could do standing in place.
Also start up frames do matter for footsies if your move is still starting up and your opponents is already out you get hit and he doesn’t. Oh wait your opponent jumped during your slow move? Hope you like eating a combo. etc.
Then why are you throwing it out like a moron with out thought. If that happens a lot, you are using it wrong. Then your situation boils down to you making a bad read (something common in footsies), or not taking note that player B likes to nuetral jump a lot.
You also fail to see that, Cosmic Heel, is nothing like cr.mk. Cosmic Heel moves forward, but eats crouch tech and eats bad pokes alive. cr.mk is not going to do that at a distance where Cosmic Heel would. two fundamentally different moves with different functions, where now for some odd reason people think are the same move just slower. LOL.
Let me re explain
Cosmic Heel is a sweep that sets up a lot of stuff while doing damage. Problem is that its easier to react to and punish because like Joz said, its slow. Its highly punishable when whiffed because it was mispaced, you commit to that move completely.
Cr.mk does not function like that.
@ Pedo- The problem with cl mk is that it is -1 on block so I can’t use it up close. Cr mk is +2 on block and with it being 6 frame startup I could rely on it up close since 8 frame startup is sometimes too slow. Not only is it +2 on block which is perfect for a followup frame trap but you are at perfect range for a kara throw which strengthens the frame trap.
In addition cr mk x cr mk will now be a 4 frame gap on block and if done meaty you can even close the gap to a 3 or 2 frame gap. If done meaty on the second or third frame on hit cr mk x cr mk x cr mp x EX FBA will be more possible and likely to happen.
As for the ambigous mixup. You can do it after a ST or EX FBA, but they have different timings and if they don’t tech ST you can follow up with another type of mixup. It’s strength is best in the corner though.
What you do is after the knockdown you walk and do CH and try to land on the person on the floor. If done right then you will either go less distance than a normal CH or more distance than a normal CH so its ambiguous in that aspect. From there you do either a cl HP, cr mk, grab, insta overhead.
Cl HP wrecks alot of people’s options, but cr mk is faster and has better options afterwards on block, although it has not been blocked often in my experience. Overhead is good if you know that you are about to stun since this “mixup” is stunning alot of players I am playing, and cr mk is good once again to hit them low when they go to block high. Players just don’t follow it right, and then when they see you close they panic with an attack which is usually a cr tech or grab.
This is not to be confused with just dash CH which is obviously not ambiguous. I will post a video so you could see me doing it although I haven’t perfected it.
@ Veserius- Alot of times when people jump when you use CH you get behind them which is actually a free combo for you… I rarely get punished for CH.
I’m not, I just said a move having better startup can make it better in footsies. You can’t just say “well startup doesn’t matter” then say “use it smartly so your startup doesn’t get hit”. The startup limits its applications.
Uhh where the hell did this come from? I was talking about dudley’s st.fierces. Having two of them is better than having one for his footsies. whatever though.
Agree w veserius
cosmic heel is mediocre
I could go on but I’ll just get some arbitrary response
Long story short, making sure people try to tech your kara throws is far less worrisome than ppl who won’t stop jumping in on you
Argue all you want, ch is situational and isn’t something to be relied on
Is that so? An easier to do ambiguous set up, than the slide, thats pretty cool. It will add more to the already known stuff.
Look forward for the new vid, although it seems easy enough.
Woopse mis read, sorry. Although the point was most directed at part two of your post. Saying that slowness makes a move less applicable which isn’t true.
kara-throw is a very mediocre move as well. relying on it isnt something that should be happening, and neither should footsies alone because with out Cosmic Heel Vega’s footsies are ass without Cosmic Heel. Cosmic Heel opens up all those knock down mix ups that cant be achieved through sweep, throw, or punishment. You should have taken note when you played Daigo. How often did he allow himself to be throw, swept, or put himself where he could be punished with a pre-charged FBA punish? Cosmic Heel adds to the % of you landing a critical knock down for ambiguity, meaty dives, cross ups, baits which allow you to continue pressure regardless, etc. Not applying it limits your game and makes it linear.
Well hopefully it gets partially rebuffed in Super Street Fighter 4 Arcade Edition Hyper Turbo DLC Update Mix
I completely agree with pedo.
All of Vegas options by there own are mediocre at best. CH IS good because of Kara-Throw, s.LK, cr.MK. His pokes alone don’t do anything. He has good range, but the frame advantage on block is ass. All of his footsie options complement each other and everyone who doesn’t use all these options, can’t play Vega with his full potential.
And in AE the made one options slightly better and stripping us of another option completely…
Another problem will possibly be the meter. CH - ST did great damage and we gained a lot of meter. What do we have instead? Possibly cr.MK, cr.MP xx EX FBA, costing meter… All heavy damage comes from EX FBA and we will definitly not have one stock for every opportunity we could land a big combo. And in this game, where it is really more and more about 50/50s we can’t poke our opponent to death, because one mistake could lead to a knockdown, which can lead to losing the round, with still no reversal.
Of course you do, all either of you do is complain
In all seriousness its amusing listening to you guys tell me how I should play
Either of you guys been to a tourney lately? Might take some time out of your theory fighting schedule actually =\
Complain? All im doing is telling you what Cosmic Heel does, to those who keep underaing it or think this myth of it being brain dead. Am I fucking saying that you have to use it? Am I saying that Joz is a shit player for not using it? No, what I am doing is stating what it does as a fucking tool, the options available. whatever keep kara-throwing.
Last tournament I was at was Dec. 18th, and got top 15 (out of 64), so I think I did decent.
I’m just upset that Vega was crap in Vanilla (didn’t play SF4 much), decent in this game, and now they want to nerf stuff to a character that was actually really balanced. Vega was in that grey area in the tier list where he wasn’t a complete beast, nor completely helpless.
I haven’t been very active in this thread, I’m going to reserve a lot of my comments until I actually get my hands on and play AE, or see some more US vids since the arcade vids from Japan their pretty lacking.
[media=youtube]Wo7vfA2nk1g#t=15m55s[/media]
tsk tsk. no invincibility. CH is gone and no adequate reversal or replacement to CH.
i still have to experience AE vega for myself but the removal of his most powerful weapon means the worst for him.
i’m amazed that you’re still at it to be honest. if they haven’t learned anything in the last 2 and a half years and still cling to their fundamentally flawed “understanding” (:looney:) of vega, why do you think they’ll learn now?
also jozhear has convinced himself that he played poorly vs daigo and the rest of the japanese when that isn’t the case. unfortunately his mind is preventing him from admitting that vega is as good as he’d like to believe and he’d sooner blame himself rather than design flaws.
id like to share a little something with you guys.
i played Air when he first came back to BC from Japan. i asked him what his thoughts were about various characters, and of course vega.
the conversation when something like this:
“have you played makoto?”
“the chara-”
“no, i mean the player, the person named makoto who mains vega”
“oh yeah, ive played that person…”
“how good is he?”
“very good. i can’t beat him, or at least i have a lot of trouble beating him”
“what is it that makoto does that makes him so strong? what do you have trouble against?”
“he uses that move that brings him forward and hits me and uses it a lot…”
“cosmic heel?”
“umm… the down-forward HK move”
“yeah, that’s cosmic heel”
“yes. that move is very very good and is difficult to deal with”
given my previous views of vega, what air said when i spoke to him and what capcom has done to vega, i laugh every time one of you assholes try to down play vega’s most important move.
what does he have now? let me go with the answer you’ll of course jump to: “a faster c.mk”
are you serious? it can’t even come close to comparing. it doesn’t move vega forward, it doesn’t give him the same powerful (powerful in regards to vega…) mix up game, doesn’t knock down… pedoviejo has hit the nail on the head and is 100% correct.
but it’s okay. you’ll all continue to be dumb and live in ignorance, pretending vega is viable. lol, many of you even thought vanilla vega was viable and could contend with sagat! talk about delusional!
i do enjoy visiting the vega forums. always good for a laugh!
Haha, high five.
I actually have an AE near me. I’d try and test things out but I can’t really test much very well because I never really played on stick haha. Gotta learn that first…
[edit]
Vanilla Vega wasn’t bad vs sagat…
according to you guys and air who agrees that ryu only.has 3./ winning matchups.this is why cosmic heel is so good
he has a mixup where you can either throw for 120 damage and have a follow up mixup against 40% of the cast or a 300 damage mixup with momentum advantage after against nearly everyone.
Shadow when are you gonna get off your ass and play instead of talking shit,
I wanna see how salty you can get after I shit all over your bison continually and without remorse
I dont know why you bother also. How can someone be so obnoxious when there is so much great advice here. It sometimes takes the perspective of the opponent to realise what works and what doesnt. What Air said should be confirmation enough that CH is a great tool when used correctly. And of course you dont just spam it, whoever said that is a moron.
@Pedo: I’m guessing you missed the “Online” part of me not using CH as a footsie tool. Why? I don’t even bother with footsies online because my connection is so bad I’d sooner get a punch in the face than actually have them put to use.
Offline my footsies are far better because there’s no worry of “Lag might fuck me over on this one.” I use CH sometimes with it, but I’m really not about to rely on it. Footsies should be a set of safe pokes that can put you at an advantageous position. And something slow to startup and now with AE if it gets blocked, you’re going to get hurt if you’re throwing it out constantly.
But eh, what do I know?
I’ve always been under the rule of thumb that a good footsie tool is something quick and safe. CH, at the moment, is pretty safe even on block. But then in AE that really won’t be the case so much anymore.
@Joz: Just ignore Shadow. His pitiful attempts at arrogance and trolling are getting obscenely boring now.
Not necessarily if you get good at hitting on the 4 or 5 frame which may be possible seeing as the hitbox looks to be fixed, so it may not be that unsafe. Also considering that most people will probably grab after a blocked CH like they do now. You can just tech it even if you are at -2 and probably -3 but I’m not sure.