regarding what Juri lost I am not sure what you meant. I remember her unblockable glitch when super came out regarding U2 but thats it
Uhm, it was actually a stealth nerf (or something like that) in AE, they made teleports longer by 4 frames according to the frame datas.
Well I have other people in the community agree with me on this.
“He doesn’t know what he’s talking about, it has nothing to do with what the opponent is likely to do, it’s only about what his options are.”
“50/50 just means that there the aggressor has two options that counter everything that the defender can do at that situation. Everything else is moot.”
Therefore, I think your interoperation is wrong. This really doesn’t have anything to do with math degree, it have to do with what this community been using 50/50 as. It doesn’t take an English degree to tell us “Fire ball” doesn’t mean hadoken. Everyone know fireball doesn’t always literally mean a ball of fire in the context of this site.
Right, but remember if the empty jump grab missed, it is completely punishable. Those are the different. Plus Thawk doesn’t have safe jump option. Also Akuma can OS ultra 1 too on backdash. And we are still not considering other options like Cross up Tatus and reversal stuffing dive kick.
But that is the point of safe jump. How is your opp. suppose to know it is a safe jump every time? You said that like the defender can tell every time it is a safe jump and if it is safe jump it is automatically not a grabs. And even if it is a safe jump, they still have to guess high and low with palm being over head and can’t be focused out plus whiff have instant recovery that give you low hit which link to confirmable knock down and loop again.
It was one of those jump-in unblockables with her jumping MP. In Super, it was really good for mix-ups because it looked like a cross-up, but it hit in front and still dodged common reversals like Shoryuken. In AE, it whiffs entirely if tried to be used the same way. Don’t get me wrong - I was salty, but ultimately, it’s not the type of thing that determines the outcome of a match. It just makes her risk/reward less in her favor. Akuma’s case seems to be similar to this. He’ll still be able to get mix-ups from the knockdown, but they won’t be as safe anymore, so the risk/reward is a bit more balanced.
I’m not going to bother reading everything you said, I’m just gonna tell you one thing, Akuma got hit by the nerf hammer from Vanilla to SSFIV harder than Yun, Mak, Fei or whatever. I’ve been on these boards since Vanilla, do you think we were this salty back then? or this salty from SSFIV to AE?
No we fucking weren’t, the reason we are really pissed this time around is because they made a stupid and unfair nerf to Akuma (I’m talking about his forward throw nerf specially, the palm nerf isn’t as significant). This in theory removes the ability for us to position ourselves and go for safejumps or x-ups vs characters with 6 frame or faster reversals and there are many with those in the game.
People keep talking about how Akuma got this and Akuma got that so it’s OK, it’s like Akuma has no weaknesses and we have to take every fucking thing they throw at us with a smile on our faces.
- Akuma’s stun damage is low
- Damage isn’t that high considering his health
- Akuma’s normals have low active frames and the hit/hurtboxes aren’t the best
- DP has crap horizontal range for AA
- Has 850 health and 850 stun
- His backthrow is garbage
- His mixup game isn’t as rewarding as other mixup heavy characters in the game
I’m NOT complaining about those and want improvements, just stating 'em.
Now, do you want on top of that to give us a potentially crap forward throw and expect us to be like “Nah it’s fine, Akuma’s so Godlike I’m gonna win everything with footsies because Akuma doesn’t even need a decent normal throw”. Fuck that.
Will I accept the nerf? Probably. Do I have to welcome it and show like it doesn’t piss me off? Fuck no.
The problem is that the use of the term 50/50 is completely wrong. It is the same way that calling a tissue a “Klenex” is wrong too, but everyone does it. Or the use of the term “electrolytes” by Gatoraid is also wrong.
Just because the community uses it that way doesn’t make it right and it comes from the common misunderstanding of how probability in general works. I would say 90% of the people out there understand how a coin flip or a dice roll works, but they don’t understand probability past that.
Either way it doesn’t disprove my point anyways. The player is what makes it a good mix up or not. It isn’t autopilot as you said earlier.
Funny you should mention. Because Demon flip grab is no different. It has a long recovery on whiff and whiffs if your opponent does anything besides stand there. I’ve eaten things like back dash Ultra rather frequently. If your grab gets sniffed out by your opponent you better expect to eat damage.
Again not true
The reason we are not is because they are not the same family of mix ups. The Dive kick is what I like to call a “bully option”. In other words the point of the dive kick isn’t to mix your opponent up. It is basically me saying “You are going to be a nice little boy and block or else I and shoving this combo down your throat.” I am not hiding what I am doing. I am telling you I am coming and you should just behave.
Cross up tatsu comes from the Normal jump family of mix ups and can’t be set up by the demon flip.
No you can’t tell they are always going to safe jump just as much as the Akuma player can’t tell the opponent is going to be a good little boy and stay still so you can go for the unsafe options. You would be shocked at how many times someone will get hit by a safe palm AND STILL mash reversal. Even players who are decent at the game. From the palm mix up you have two main options of using the empty palm (getting nerfed) or flip grab. Both of which are not the safest and can be countered.
This goes back to my point that you have to realize that there is a human playing the other character and you have to do your best to read them. This isn’t a brainless mix up that beats everything. You are given a set of tools and each tool has a purpose. It is your job to figure out how to use them against your opponent.
There is no randomness to it there is an order to it. Every Human has a pattern, some people just have one so big it is hard to figure out.
You making things too easy. Hawks can play risky, Akuma don’t. It’s 250 health difference there.
You’ll end up losing if you neglect such options on a 1100 health/stun char.
If my opponent cannot recognize a safejump, most of the time he’s not even close to being decent. So yeah, that doesn’t concern me or any decent player. Sure there are instances where you won’t have time to react accordingly, but that’s the same for every character.
Besides, when it’s a palm safejump you don’t have to guess between H/L: you first block high, then you block low. It’s not a guess, it’s just a matter of doing it quickly. People have been able to do it since Vanilla, there’s no problem there - that’s the only reason the palm nerf isn’t as bad as the throw one.
Also, stop trying to make it sound like it’s an endless, brainless loop. You palm OS sweep/stuff, your opponents blocks, your vortex ends and you’re back to pressuring with normals. You know how often that happens, since it’s very risky for Akuma to go for grabs? Any good opponent who know how the vortex works will keep this in mind.
Moreover, Tatsu > Sweep doesn’t work on 1/3 of the cast.
gotcha not sure where I missed that one. Musta been a page on SRK I missed bc damn I researched juri when she came out and just got frustrated
So in this Akuma discussion thread you decided to pick out something Most People In this Community understood as standard practice? That is just nitpicking and adding distraction from the original discussion. I’m not talking to you jerks anymore.
Then why did you continue to argue semantics…
In other news, I just lost 500PP because I get all sad after every forward throw I land.
You really started the nitpicking and so far haven’t refuted anything I said.
Mmmm… I’m pretty sure 50/50 means that out of my limited options to escape a certain situation, I can guess equaly right or wrong. So Akuma’s throw is unavoidable? Funny, I thought that’s what TECHING was for… Heck, even neutral jump and backdashing avoids throws. You saying NONE of the characters in SSF4 have those possibilities? Maybe instead of mashing throw when you see Akuma go for the x-up tatsu hoping he misses the timing, you should be blocking?.. I don’t know.
So Akuma’s “loop” or “vortex” is autopilot and is unavoidable by most of the cast in SSF4? Like just performing a tatsu in the air garantees it’s going to cross up correctly 100% of the time without fail or doing 2 x dash DF Palm/kick/Grab is a gimme to effectively pin down and opponent for ever? If that’s the case, why don’t you go ahead and try it… I expect to see a snapshot of your Akuma with 5000PP in one week since it’s so easy, right? Dive Kick isn’t safe. DF Grab isn’t safe. Even DF Palm can be snuffed out of the air by characters with a good reversal or backdash/ultra.
Shit, even Tokido, with all his knowledge and skill, can’t dominate eveyone he plays against and his Akuma setups are GDLK. Did you happen to see how many players he raped with his “autopilot” Akuma at EVO this year?
If even one of the top SSF4 players and BEST Akuma player in the world right now can’t dominate with this supposedly, unblockable, unescapable, ovepowered, top-tier character… Others have said this, but it’s so far escaped your sight: Akuma has many tools on offense that make him a real threat, but his low health and stun threashold makes up for it!!! As soon as we screw up ONCE or the opponent guesses right ONCE, in most cases it means 50% of our life is gone (if not more). And that’s NOW, before the AE 2012 patch hits. After the throw gets nerfed, more than half our old setups are gone which means opponents will now have more of a chance to make us pay for mistakes.
Most of us just wanted to have Akuma be left alone. Some were asking for some reasonable buffs (like some moves having more stun to allow for dizzies after consecutive successful mixups). And yes, some people were asking for unreasonable things like tatsu-sweep on everyone (that would make him not only overpowered but boring to play, IMO). There’s nothing wrong with wanting your character to be better. I’m sure if you go to every character forum, you’d see much of the same.
Yeah guys, akuma has autopilot mixups. Anyone can play him, that’s why there are always so many top players that main akuma.
That was sarcasm, sorry 
People who just think they can assume things about such an in depth character really need to fuck off. The ignorance is KIIIINDA annoying.
edit: idgaf about palm overhead, but i want my 2 frames back.
/whineeeeeeeee
I am always amazed just how ignorant players are sometimes. They haven’t mastered their own characters and have the nerve to talk like they know all there is to know about Akuma.
That’s just it. Most people who are serious about the game and serious about having a legit balanced character said “Leave him alone. No buffs. If you are going to buff him. Give him more stun.” That’s what most people said.
And what is funny is that everyone keeps bringing up the palm when almost no one is bringing up the palm. People don’t like the change in throw. Most don’t understand that it’s a bit of a game changer (Since we can’t keep the pressure as well off a forward throw now) and undoes all the work and practice that some Gouki players have been working on for years by one simple change. It’s Akuma’s most basic and go to set-up to start his mix-up game.
I can’t help but feel that if Akuma received a decent buff that people could overlook the forward throw change like his back throw which I believe is mad useless.
Honest to God I get scared when I get thrown by other characters because I’m not sure if they have guaranteed pressure or not most of the time , because as LoyalSol says I don’t know other characters well enough. I’m not going to throw stones or any comments about saltiness but if I was an Akuma main I would switch frankly because Akuma is now less interesting. Nearly every character got new stuff, some even got game breaking buffs.
I’ll say this, it was fair for Capcom to take away the throw set up if their intention was minimise “looping” it was however unfair that they didn’t compensate for such a change.
Hope it doesn’t turn out as bad as it seems guys, I honestly think you should switch characters unless you still really like Akuma.
The thing people don’t understand is this nerf doesn’t change the match ups Akuma could dominate with wake up pressure. It changes the ones you already had a hard time pressuring. Akuma will still have unblockables and 5 frame safe jumps. He loses his 4 frame safe jumps.
The empty palm nerf will hurt but not enough to help those match ups. Overall the nerf was senseless and lazy.
Which non-corner 4f setups do you mean?
Are you talking about safejumping with DF palm or dive kick? (which doesn’t even come close to how useful a normal safejump/x-up tatsu is, specially now that you can block all DF options while crouching and DF grab is a very risky option).
Because I’m 100% sure we will still be able to safejump characters with DF palm, whether 4 frames reversals or not, Akuma has the time to do that. It’s getting to the position to go for normal j.hk safejump/x-up that’s screwed.
At the moment to get to that position we have to dash twice, when playing against a character with normal wakeup time, if you’ve done frame perfect 2 dashes, you’ll only be able to safejump 5frame reversals, I can’t see how we’ll be able to do that with 2+ added recovery frames! With the added recovery frames in theory we shouldn’t be able to safejump 6 frames or faster reversals which is very very bad.
EDIT: Any chance walking to that position would be faster? I always assumed dashing would be faster so I don’t know to be honest, but if walking is faster and we can walk to the j.hk/x-up position and still be able to safejump 5f reversals, I have no problem learning to manually safejump instead of just dashing twice and instant jumping. That would be harder yes, but at least there’s a solution!
The problem isn’t that Akuma got nerfed. The problem is that the current nerf changes the nature of Akuma himself. Most Akuma players like him because (in no particular order):
- He looks cool
- He’s a risky char with high damage/stun but very low health/stun himself
- He has a lot of defensive options
- He has a sick vortex
#1 got nerfed with Super - fadc to red fireball isn’t worth it compared to an ex srk except in a very few situations
#2 got nerfed with Super - Akuma can hardly stun anyone now
#3 got nerfed with AE - no runaway tatsu anymore, but that was definitely a good change
#4 got nerfed with AE2012 - won’t explain, see this thread
Akuma was an extreme char. Sick vortex, sick stun, sick looks - but in exchange for that you gave up resistance. But he’s slowly losing all of that. The very features that define Akuma in SF4 are getting stripped away from him.
That’s why most Akuma players in this thread are pissed as hell, while people on other forums are happy about the nerf. It’s because the latter don’t understand what’s really going on here. The reactions in this thread would’ve been very different if, say, Akuma’s health/stun got dropped by 100, but he got more stun output and red fireballs back - maybe Akuma would drop in the tier list because it wouldn’t make up for the nightmarish health/stun but most people here would continue playing him because he’d still be motherfucking Akuma. And if some chars are still helpless against Akuma’s vortex then buff their wakeup options, at least it’ll help them against other chars too. And if they don’t need it against other chars and are balanced overall then don’t do anything, or should we nerf Dhalsim because he’s a bad matchup for Zangief?
Anyway instead of that we have people considering going for Evil Ryu because he hits and stuns like a truck while looking badass as hell, or Seth, or Sakura.
TLDR other character boards happy because top tier Akuma nerfed. Akuma board unhappy not only because drop in tier list but also because nerf is last of long nerf history that makes Akuma not Akuma anymore. Mutual comprehension impossible.
Autopilot? Autopilot is viper and bison with their same safe brainless shit they do all day over and over. Every fucking viper player and bison player I have come across have the same bullshit safe pressure, guess what. Bison got buffed and viper got away with barely any nerfs. 90% of the match against viper is just seismos and ambiguous burn kicks, against bison its just eating or blocking lk scissors over and over.