SSF4 AE v2012 - Official Akuma Changes Discussion

[LoyalSol]

The grab nerf was necessary because it was trying to avoid giving Akuma an unblockable and a flowchart set up. Look at other characters. Do any of them have similar mix up like this? Akuma have an almost auto pliot set up after something as simple as a forward throw that give him safe jump, overhead, armor break, unblockable throw, high low AND cross up mixup + anti-dash option select, all in one package

Do other character have that?

Zoning for what? Do you have any context or source?

BS all the way. I seriously get tired of people calling it auto pilot.

Here is the thing about Akuma most players don’t understand. We have a crap ton of tools and most of them are good for covering a single situation. The problem is with the exception of the cross up Tatsu (Which is not a good mix up by itself) none of the moves have a built in 50/50. It isn’t like Ibuki’s Kunai or Viper’s burn kick where if you space the move correctly it performs the mix up on its own. With Akuma It is the player who makes it a 50/50

If I palm 80% of the time and grab 20% of the time it isn’t a 50/50, it is an 80/20 mix up. If I don’t ever grab it isn’t a mix up. In order to make it a good mix up YOU have to make it good the game doesn’t automatically do it for you. Don’t believe me? Try doing this against a player who can actually play defense. They will read your vortex fast and quickly adjust. If all you do is safe jump they will eventually block the first hit and look to escape after the jump in.

Seriously as I keep telling people, if you want to call it auto pilot play Akuma against a good player and tell me it is auto pilot. You guys really don’t appreciate just how hard it is to keep someone mixed up.

[ID01]

To use your “But Ibuki/Seth/Viper” still have their looping pressure argument against you why are other characters able to still do their “unblockables?”. It’s not like these 1 frame to block “unblockables” were discovered for Akuma first…

I don’t think this is about unblockable to be honest.

I don’t look at the tier lists tbh, but rather at how characters fare at majors, whether they shows dominance etc.

That is fine, but this is about the tier list. They are fixing problem with specific match up and making more character tournament viable. You are here saying your character is not strong enough cause there are only one or two Akuma that make it into top 16 on major tournament. How about those character that have never ever made that far, at all? What is your feeling on this? The feeling toward that 2f nerf on throw mess up your tool is well understood, but what would you have nerf instead to make match up against character with no reversal and no get out option balance against Akuma? You are insisting that nerfing is not necessary, well, statistic suggest otherwise.

Not a perfect example, but an example none the less. You can play perfectly and then one mistake = 80% of your health gone.

Getting hit by the same ultra twice is not perfect.

If I palm 80% of the time and grab 20% of the time it isn’t a 50/50, it is an 80/20 mix up.

I don’t think you understand what 50/50 means. It means how many options you have verses how many escape they have and the odd of them guessing right. It doesn’t mean how many times you use the same option.

Seriously as I keep telling people, if you want to call it auto pilot play Akuma against a good player and tell me it is auto pilot. You guys really don’t appreciate just how hard it is to keep someone mixed up.

I don’t think you appreciate the thought that most other cast CAN NOT mix anyone up like that. It is not just difficult for them. It is the fact that they can not do it at all. Plus a large amount of character have no out against Akuma’s mix up. They have to constantly guess correctly with odd against them survives.

[ShinAkuma204]

No it’s not a red herring, stop trying to kid yourselves that Capcom’s testers are crap,

It has nothing to do with Capcom testers being crap. Nice try on the strawman tho.

If it makes yourself better keep telling yourselves that it’s all about unblockables and not the looping pressure. But but but Ibuki has it and she did STOP, ignore You ignore that Ibuki is a much weaker character than Akuma and that Akuma has a massive amount of advantages over her. Ibuki is all about her vortex, take that out and she is nothing. She can’t be the TOD rushdown machine she was in 2nd Impact without a total redesign (and a system and engine change…)

Sure, Ibuki is a weaker character overall than Akuma. But Viper and Seth aren’t, so your incomplete argument doesn’t hold any water.

The developers singled out toning down Akuma’s looping pressure,

If the dev’s were truly concerned about looping pressure characters with better looping pressure would have seen changes as well, but they didn’t.

When AE dropped the dev’s wanted to do something about defensive playstyle. So what did they do? They changed all the major defensive characters. In this patch there is no consistent changes regarding looping pressure and going after Akuma throw isn’t even the best way to deal with his looping pressure.

But going after the throw does hurt unblockables the most…

I’m not here to gloat or anyone, I just don’t want you guys being in denial.

Obvious remains obvious. Forward throw nerf hurts unblockables more than loop pressure. Lack of loop nerfs on other character speak volumes. Capcom in the past was very consistent with how they made changes and there is no consistency this time.

This is really about unblockables.

To use your “But Ibuki/Seth/Viper” still have their looping pressure argument against you why are other characters able to still do their “unblockables?”. It’s not like these 1 frame to block “unblockables” were discovered for Akuma first…

Akuma has the most unblockable setups on more cast and they are the easiest, and thus the easiest to fix. Especially considering most stem from the same setup. (forward throw in the corner)

[Laughter_7]

I logged in to post a reply to ID01 and then I realised… he’s an idiot. No point arguing with an idiot because from a distance onlookers can’t tell who’s who.

[ID01]

I logged in to post a reply to ID01 and then I realised… he’s an idiot. No point arguing with an idiot because from a distance onlookers can’t tell who’s who.

Personal attack? I can do that too. Thank you for giving me more evident that this thread consists of just a bunch of salty tier whore who simply isn’t capable of playing a non-top tier character, and have no clues what this game and what these changes is for.

I’m sure Capcom will evaluates your opinion highly.

[LoyalSol]

I don’t think you understand what 50/50 means. It means how many options you have verses how many escape they have and the odd of them guessing right. It doesn’t mean how many times you use the same option.

No I don’t think you understand what 50/50 means. If I read what my opponent is doing and realize he is doing more palms than grabs it increases my odds of guessing right because there is a higher probability of a palm than a throw.

50/50 is in an assumption that both options have an equal probability of occurring. An assumption that isn’t always true in a real match against real people especially when the player has control over the mix up. In the case of Akuma he has a safe option out of flip (Palm) and a very unsafe one (Grab). Odds are Akuma players are going to palm more than grab. So you would expect a more slanted distribution.

In the case of Viper or Ibuki, the player in general does not control the probability if he performs the mix up properly. In that case it becomes much more like a 50/50 probability because hitting cross up or not cross up has an equal chance of happening.

I don’t think you appreciate the thought that most other cast CAN NOT mix anyone up like that. It is not just difficult for them. It is the fact that they can not do it at all. Plus a large amount of character have no out against Akuma’s mix up. They have to constantly guess correctly with odd against them survives.

Guess what? Akuma can’t throw Sonic booms like Guile, he can’t scissor kick like Bison, he can’t take damage or grab people like Gief, he can’t mash upper cut into Ultra, he can’t punish crap like Fei can, he can’t dive kick like Rufus. So what’s your point? That Akuma has something no one else has? Guess what, other characters have things Akuma doesn’t have. So why aren’t we talking about that?

Also you can say that just because a character isn’t a mix up character does mean they aren’t effective. Bison was never a mix up character. Instead he was a character who pressured you into doing something stupid. Guile was much the same way before he got nerfed to hell. They are characters that instead of making you guess, they force you in a bad situation where you have to take a risk to get out.

And honestly most players don’t know how to get out of even simple mix ups let alone complex ones. Akuma’s vortex isn’t easy to keep knowledgeable players in. It takes a lot of serious effort.

I am not down playing other characters, rather I am telling you to get out of this tunnel vision mentality. Akuma is great at several things, but he does have weaknesses.

[ShinAkuma204]

That is fine, but this is about the tier list. They are fixing problem with specific match up and making more character tournament viable. You are here saying your character is not strong enough cause there are only one or two Akuma that make it into top 16 on major tournament. How about those character that have never ever made that far, at all? What is your feeling on this?

The soution to that is obvious isn’t it?

Make those characters better not other characters worse.

The feeling toward that 2f nerf on throw mess up your tool is well understood, but what would you have nerf instead to make match up against character with no reversal and no get out option balance against Akuma?

Nothing. Throws are not hard to tech or avoid. Safe jumps are not unique to Akuma. Every single character has them. Nor is Akuma’s safe jump the most potent.

If a character has problems dealing with safe jumps that problem will exist in every single matchup. Nerfing one single matchup won’t do much in terms of moving those characters up the tier charts, hence such an approach is doomed for failure.

You are insisting that nerfing is not necessary, well, statistic suggest otherwise.

Really? What statistic is that?

[ID01]

50/50 is in an assumption that both options have an equal probability of occurring

I am pretty sure you are wrong. 50/50 means this situation, the defender have a 50/50 chance of getting out. Because he have no options that can get out of of all the options the attacker is doing, and each other options he have only let him out of one of the option and lose to the other, hence 50/50.

a bunch of other things

I think you are missing the point here. The point is that, for a specific characters and match up, there are no tool for them to defend against a well played Akuma, so something need to change. It is that simple. This isn’t about whether other character can’t mix up like Akuma, this is about having a number of characters whom have no options to get out at.

Akuma have one of the fastest movement speed, one of the best focus attack, the only character with air fireball (non ultra, that is). But this isn’t the point, all of these, have options for other player to deal with. The specific nerf is to take away Akuma’s option that they don’t have a way to get out of.

Make those characters better not other characters worse.

I can see why you would say that, let’s change a bunch of characters instead of taking one thing from one character. A lot of people would think that is the best way to balance something. I imagine. And they would probably be wrong. Statistically speaking that have much higher risk of screwing thing up then to help. Cause all those characters now have something -everyone else- have to deal with. Do you give all of them new tools now? to deal with something that is meant to fix something else? Where does this end?

Really? What statistic is that?

Look at the match up list?

[dr4gz0r]

Damn you guys, now I don’t have anything to add lol.

one of the best focus attack

Uh, since when?

It’s pretty standardish advantage wise (-2, +4), and as far as the range goes from my SSF4 tests 23 characters have better range, and 3 have the same range as him (Hakan lacks from this list though, same for AE characters). This is not one of the best in my book :E

[Laughter_7]

But this isn’t the point, all of these, have options for other player to deal with. The specific nerf is to take away Akuma’s option that they don’t have a way to get out of.

Like I was saying… you’re an idiot. You’re making out like his mix-ups consist of a series of unblockables. They are not unblockables. They are mix-ups, which you evidently lack the skill and mental capacity to deal with. Based on your rationale all safe jumps would be phased out of the game. Maybe fighting games aren’t for you?

[LoyalSol]

I am pretty sure you are wrong. 50/50 means this situation, the defender have a 50/50 chance of getting out. Because he have no options that can get out of of all the options the attacker is doing, and each other options he have only let him out of one of the option and lose to the other, hence 50/50.

I am pretty sure I am not. Again YOU ARE ASSUMING THAT BOTH ATTACKS HAVE AN EQUAL CHANGE OF OCCURRING. It is mistake #1 in probability. Just because there are two options does not imply a 50/50. In fact 90% of probability does not deal with equal probabilities.

The term 50/50 means it is the same odds as flipping a coin. As a player, if I am reluctant to use the unsafe options till I know you are blocking that means you have a higher chance of guessing correctly.

Calling a 50/50 is really misleading and frankly ignorant because the player is the one in control of it and the funny thing about humans is we are creatures of habit.

Again it is the player who makes it a 50/50, 60/40, 70/30, 80/20, etc.

I think you are missing the point here. The point is that, for a specific characters and match up, there are no tool for them to defend against a well played Akuma, so something need to change. It is that simple. This isn’t about whether other character can’t mix up like Akuma, this is about having a number of characters whom have no options to get out at.

Guess what, those characters have trouble against everyone. This isn’t an effect of Akuma vs ______, it is an effect of those characters just sucking at waking up in general. So no duh they suffer against a character who is great a pressuring on wake up. There are only like 2 or 3 characters who normally don’t have problems waking up against others but do against Akuma

Do you think Chun only gets safe jumped by Akuma? I can perform the same kinds of mix ups against Chun using T-Hawk for crying out loud. I don’t hear anyone complaining about that match up.

This comes back to reading your opponent and reacting instead of blindly guessing. You want to know why great players are great players? It isn’t that there execution is awesome, a lot of people have great execution. It is their ability to change their style when they need to. Waking up is no different. I’ve played some amazing people who use the characters you name and funny how they can still wake up every so often because they aren’t blindly guessing. They are trying to stay one step ahead of me.

[ID01]

Like I was saying… you’re an idiot. You’re making out like his mix-ups consist of a series of unblockables. They are not unblockables. They are mix-ups, which you evidently lack the skill and mental capacity to deal with. Based on your rationale all safe jumps would be phased out of the game. Maybe fighting games aren’t for you?

Did you miss the part where I said “I don’t think this is about unblockable to be honest.” by any chance?

Again it is the player who makes it a 50/50, 60/40, 70/30, 80/20, etc.

I disagree with your interoperation. Probability as 50/50 in applied sense is to determines likeliness of an event. Not a measure of how good a player is… What is the point of calling T.Hawk’s spirit a “50/50” when some player who are good suddenly change it into a 40/60? that… really doesn’t make any sense whatsoever.

Do you think Chun only gets safe jumped by Akuma? I can perform the same kinds of mix ups against Chun using T-Hawk for crying out loud. I don’t hear anyone complaining about that match up.

Um. No, you can not. Thawk jump in, have what, two options? You block high, you focus back dash, focus forward dash, just out right jump. You likely don’t need to block low, cause T hawk doesn’t have options from low hit that link into safe knock down. Either it is unsafe, or it doesn’t knock down. Focus backdash, will beat empty jump in 360, and thawk is also unsafe at this point if he whiff a 360. attacking will not beat block, but now you either grabs or frame trap, which ,frame trap lead to fairly low damage out put and possibly unsafe against reversal, and grabs lead to unsafe becasue they can back dash, and is also unsafe against reversal.

Akuma is different here, you see, dive kick beats dash, palm beats focus, and grabs beats block, but palm also beats focus when hit, and when whiff it also go to high low mix up, and both of those are safe. Grabs is also safe, since for his recovery, anyone without a 4 f reversal is just shit out of luck on punishing at all, and if that got baited out by a safe jump, mix punish. If it doesn’t, you have link that get you out of any range and is completely safe from either dive kick or a successfully blocked palm? After that, you still have to worry about grab and frame trap even after you guessed right on one out of three choices, and only one of those choices is even punishable.

Oh and I didn’t even add cross up tatsu, cross up dive kick, whiff grabs, normal jump with no cross up, and one of those situational unblockable.

Do you see the different?

[LoyalSol]

I disagree with your interoperation. Probability as 50/50 in applied sense is to determines likeliness of an event. Not a measure of how good a player is… What is the point of calling T.Hawk’s spirit a “50/50” when some player who are good suddenly change it into a 40/60? that… really doesn’t make any sense whatsoever.

sigh Dude you really really don’t understand how probability works

What I am getting at is the fact that the probability of the attack occuring is different from player to player. You are currently spouting off a theoretical probability that is not well supported. A bad player can choose to do only one of the two options in which case the distribution FOR THAT PLAYER becomes 100/0. For some players they are really reserved and will sparingly use the flip grab because it loses to everything. As such they will use it less. Thus FOR THAT PLAYER the probability is more like 10/90 or 20/80. If a player is reckless they might go for the unsafe option too much

Overall I think calling it “Random” is flat out stupid because the players control it. Players have patterns and habits! If you treat it as random you will be helpless. If you treat it as a person controlling the mix up you will find you can guess right.

Um. No, you can not. Thawk jump in, have what, two options? You block high, you focus back dash, focus forward dash, just out right jump. You likely don’t need to block low, cause T hawk doesn’t have options from low hit that link into safe knock down. Either it is unsafe, or it doesn’t knock down. The block, focus backdash, will beat empty jump in 360, and thawk is also unsafe at this point. attacking will equal with block ,but now you either grabs or frame trap, which,frame trap lead to fairly low damage out put and possibly unsafe against reversal, and grabs lead to unsafe becasue they can back dash.

First of all stop being that player who talks about something he doesn’t know about. I have a friend who made it out of pools with T-Hawk at Evo. All because no one thought T-Hawk could do that stuff, but I hate to tell you he can. People really under rate what T-Hawk can do just because he is low tier. As such most of the players in his pool weren’t ready for his set ups. Including his U2 traps since people are so jump happy against T-Hawk.

T-Hawk Safe Jump OS U2. Chun back dashes or reversals she eats the Ultra 2. She blocks and now she has to get out of the subsequent mix ups. She can’t jump out if you do it correctly and even if she could she is just going to eat the U2 anyways. So in a sense she is very limited in her options. Focusing out is good as an occational escape tool, but it can be beat if people are expecting it.

It forces her to block, but when she becomes comfortable you can begin grabbing. No different in the mix up from Chun to T-Hawk. Chun’s wake up just sucks against everyone. It isn’t a property of her match ups it is property of the character. The nerfs against Akuma did nothing to help this anyways because he can still do a 5 frame safe jump.

[dr4gz0r]

Grabs is also safe, since for his recovery, anyone without a 4 f reversal is just shit out of luck on punishing at all, and if that got baited out by a safe jump, mix punish. If it doesn’t, you have link that get you out of any range and is completely safe from either dive kick or a successfully blocked palm? After that, you still have to worry about grab and frame trap even after you guessed right on one out of three choices, and only one of those choices is even punishable.

Oh and I didn’t even add cross up tatsu, cross up dive kick, whiff grabs, normal jump with no cross up, and one of those situational unblockable.

Do you see the different?

Are you a PC player who’s recently bought AE?

Because Grab has 17 frames of recovery since Super (1 year and 4 months), you can even get Ultra’d for whiffing that. Every character in the game puts the hurt on a Akuma for daring the grab, the only option which actually beats d/b. Also, you get destroyed by pretty much every reversal with it.

That’s why LoyalSol’s trying to tell you to cut that 50/50 crap man.

[ID01]

You are currently spouting off a theoretical probability that is not well supported

… I am going to go ask for back up just in case I am wrong.

T-Hawk Safe Jump OS U2. Chun back dashes or reversals she eats the Ultra 2. She blocks and now she has trouble. She can’t jump out if you do it correctly. So in a sense she is very limited in her options.

couldn’t they focus backdash? the hit freeze, or if she let go, it would would screw up the OS U2. Which is one of the option I mentioned before you bought up the OS.

Because Grab has 17 frames of recovery since Super

How do you whiff and get punish a grab? They have to be reversaling, which would be baited out by safe jump palm whiff AND stuff by Dive kick. And if they jump out of the way or dash, they still can’t punish your grab

Are you a PC player who’s recently bought AE?

No I have Super on PS3 on launch and Vallia on PC since laungh too. Also AE on launch but that is obvious.

[Igydigital]

All I know is that I’m going to be throwing rocks and sand all day long baby. This is cody’s worst match up unless you have godlike defense. It’s nice to be able to at least somewhat deal with akuma’s vortex which is horrid for cody. At the end of the day, fighting a shoto like ryu or akuma is always a hard fight for my two mains (cody juri) so we have to resort to a bag of tricks and above average superior defense to stand a chance. Cody’s strength in this matchup against akuma is landing a BnB combo at Akuma’s first mistake and going for stun. At least they didn’t touch your teleport (but IMO they gave cody further reaching MK ruffian to deal with the teleport) on OS.

[Dr.Grammar]

I’m getting the impression that some of you are especially angered about the forward throw change because you’re assuming that the reason for it is to eliminate an unblockable setup. Maybe that’s true, and maybe it limits your mix-up options more, but I want to point out that for AE, we were told explicitly on the developer blog that Juri’s unblockables were being fixed. This actually caused her to lose a legitimate mix-up as well. It was annoying, of course, but Juri players just found different (though maybe not quite as strong) mix-ups to take its place. There’s no need to be so salty about it.

[dr4gz0r]

couldn’t they focus backdash? the hit freeze, or if she let go, it would would screw up the OS U2. Which is one of the option I mentioned before you bought up the OS.

It’d be the same as if she backdash’d, since the recovery on landing would be the same. Why wouldn’t it work?

How do you whiff and get punish a grab? They have to be reversaling, which would be baited out by safe jump, or they jump out of the way, which mean they can’t punish your grab

What the? If I safejump I can’t do the grab, you can’t do both. That was vanilla, where you had no recovery and could OS off the flip throw

And nj. does exist.

All I know is that I’m going to be throwing rocks and sand all day long baby. HA hAAA…bingo

<3 Cody changes, about time he got some love.

I’m getting the impression that some of you are especially angered about the forward throw change because you’re assuming that the reason for it is to eliminate an unblockable setup. Maybe that’s true, and maybe it limits your mix-up options more, but I want to point out that for AE, we were told explicitly on the developer blog that Juri’s unblockables were being fixed. This actually caused her to lose a legitimate mix-up as well. It was annoying, of course, but Juri players just found different (though maybe not quite as strong) mix-ups to take its place. There’s no need to be so salty about it.

We pretty much already replaced corner unblockables, since at Capcom they fail to use their brains. This, providing they didn’t fix the glitch which caused them in the first place.

It’s the change to the options off a forward throw and the fact that all the corner shenanigans have to be recreated from scratch.

Sad to hear Juri got this though.

[HNIC_Mike]

That’s called a red herring. If they were really concerned about looping pressure then other characters like Ibuki/Viper/Seth (two of which have way more devastating pressure) would have also had changes. They didn’t touch them. Despite what they tell us this is all about the unblockables.

those characters dont have other solid tools tho. theyre pretty much vortex/knockdowns or nothing. currently akuma has both strong oki, and top 5 fundamentals

Momochi dropped Akuma for Ken because he said Ken was better at zoning.

Sit down. Next troll step up.

actually it was because he said he wanted a more solid character with less reliance on knockdowns

[LoyalSol]

… I am going to go ask for back up just in case I am wrong.

I’ll bet my math degree that I am not wrong about that. I’ve taken several stats and probability classes.

Calling mix ups like Viper’s burn kick, Cross up Tatsu, Ibuki’s Kunai, or others similar to that a 50/50 is accurate, but calling the demon flip mix ups 50/50 IMO is not accurate because they are player controled mix ups.

couldn’t they focus backdash? the hit freeze, or if she let go, it would would screw up the OS U2. Which is one of the option I mentioned before you bought up the OS.

Focus can work although it isn’t fool proof. Usually most characters can beat it if they know it is coming.

With the buff to U2 it is great for catching anything that leaves the ground. My friend uses exclusively that any more since everyone loves to jump and back dash out of T-Hawk’s range. So much so we have a chant when he lands it.