SSF4 AE v2012 - Official Akuma Changes Discussion

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
201

Honestly guys, I don’t mind them buffing Evil Ryu, there was no point in him being that weak.

But I’m fucking pissed (again lol), why is our Super so weak? 330 vs 370 from Oni and Evil Ryu? Would that make Akuma overpowered or anything, since you get to use it once in 10 match or so with such low damage? Even 350 would make it better.

But no, we’re the wimp Demon this time.

Honestly Gam, as long as this stuff is not final, I’ll express my disappointment, there’s no point in saying “suck it down” as long as it’s not decided. And yeah, I too think things won’t eventually change.

But guys, other character got heavily boosted - especially in the lower half of the cast. Don’t expect us to stay where we are now, even without those nerf (Yun and Yang aside of course). With this in mind I don’t freaking know why they had to do touch the forward throw. Hell, even the palm.

People have already started doing it? I can’t find anything, damn Twitter I can’t use it lol.

Might not hurt though.

202

If you read the blog by Gregman:

“The character’s overall balance will remain the same, and we are just making certain moves that people have been unhappy with in the past, easier to use this time around.”
“We aimed to make him more fun for players who use him…”
“We’ve reviewed changes that were made from Super SFIV, and have made his strong points more obvious this time around.”
“which were heavily requested by players.”
“After much request, we have modified th…”
“The main focus has been readjusting some changes that players were unhappy with from the previous games…”

this goes on for nearly every character…
where are these magical people that the developers listen to? Do we have to rely on Tokido to call them retarded for nerfing us, but buffing everyone else? because judging from his blog he’s already accepted it.
Akuma is fun because it’s always about mix ups… I’m not good with him, and I stll love it when I get them right because its a satisfying win…

If I didn’t wanna play the mixup game, every round would be boring…

203

Heh, but we got LOOP SETUPS

Bleh. I wish they were honest at the very least least. Like “We just wanted to buff the whole cast aside the twins and your character. Oh, we will also scrap a tiny bit of damage from Viper, pretending to have nerfed her. Thanks and have a good day!”

204

At LEAST the changes aren’t anything like Yun or Yang’s. They went waaaaaay too far with that shit.

205

if they didn’t cut off their balls and feed them to them with a warm glass of the piss… it’s not far enough

206

Eh, they openly stated they made them overpowered on purpose, they didn’t belong to the game in the first place.

207

Hmm, try this in Super:

Forward throw > dash once, c.mp, hk flip palm whiff.

Do this on Sagat/Cammy.

Notice you land before he/she flips onto their feet. Consider an extra 2 frames added to this from the (new) forward throw’s recovery. Would this equate to a new tight safe-jump setup for 5f reversals?

This assumes forward throw distance remains unchanged. Catch is that this won’t permit a cross-up tatsu like the previous (current) dash-dash setups, but its a potential safe-jump.

I feel we will have new setups, I just don’t think dash dash cross-up tatsus will be near as usable in these situations again due to opponent’s being on their feet by the time the tatsu is coming out. Its difficult to gauge, but I’m tinkering with potential new setups and I’m not counting our options out yet.

Next task to is to do some frame data addition and see exactly how many frames current forward throw > dash dash (and fs.hk whiff) setups accumulate and then apply existing various normal whiffs to tally up a new total with +2 stacked on top.

Lets take a break from the complaining and start thinking.

208

So I just saw Tokido playing Seth online…

209

Haha, so did i a couple hours ago and i would be shocked if i didn’t knew he is playing him for a long time on XBL, since early SSF4 i think! :smiley:

210

Sagat wakes up a frame faster than Cammy does after Akuma’s forward throw.

x2 dashes = 36 frames

I’m sure we’ll be able to find palm and even dive kick safejumps, I know you don’t want to hear this, but that’s really weak compared to having an option to cross the opponent up.

Specially if we couldn’t find a way to x-up with DF palm whiffs to mix it up with front hitting dive kicks, the opponent will just crouch block or backdash to evade a DF throw.

I know it’s a very long shot, but I say we first wait and see how the game turns out, maybe there’ll be less pushback, maybe Akuma’s dash got different, maybe the opponents wakeup time after forward throw got different…etc

Or maybe Capcom won’t include this retarded nerf lol? I say we wait until things are official instead of potentially wasting our time finding setups that we won’t be able to use later.

LOL me too, was like “Already?!” lol

211

This.

First we wait for the nerfs to actually be confirmed, then we may start with some technology.

But I really agree: if we cannot crossup off a forward throw it will be tough.

212

Edit: I just saw metallicaband’s comment:

“Or maybe Capcom won’t include this retarded nerf lol? I say we wait until things are official instead of potentially wasting our time finding setups that we won’t be able to use later.”

and I agree with him.

At any rate, here’s what I typed anyway:

Some more numbers. It would be great if I could be corrected on stuff I may have wrong as I’m a bit unsure on HK flip palm whiff frames and am a bit apprehensive at throwing this info out, but I figure its a good place to perhaps start:

  • x2 dashes = 36 frames
  • Forward throw advantage = 74 frames
  • Demon flip = 5~39 (airborne) = 39 frames?
  • fs.hk = (8+ 2(8)2 + 16) = 36 frames (?)
  • fs.hp = (6+3+16) = 25 frames?
  • c.mp = (4+3+9) = 16 frames
  • c.mk = (5+3+13) = 21 frames
  • c.lp = (3+2+7) = 12 frames
  • c.lk = (4+2+9) = 15 frames

Typical reversals are 3f, 5f.

So, for safe jumps:

Forward throw > dash > c.mp > hk flip palm whiff

74 - 18 - 16 - 39 = 1 (AE) ?
76 - 18 - 16 - 39 = 3 (2012) ??

Forward throw > fs.hk > hk flip palm whiff

74 - 36 - 39 = -1 (AE) ?
76 - 36 - 39 = 1 (2012) ?

Forward throw > dash > c.lp > hk flip palm whiff

74 - 18 - 12 - 39 = 5 (AE) ?
76 - 18 - 12 - 39 = 7 (2012) ?

Forward throw > dash > c.lp > hk flip palm whiff

74 - 18 - 15 - 39 = 2 (AE) ?
76 - 18 - 15 - 39 = 4 (2012) ?

Gauging palm whiff data is difficult. Does anyone have solid figures on this, or is it variable based on the time you execute it?

More frame data:

http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2008/nov/13/akuma-gouki-frame-data-street-fighter-4/

Again, this is all very premature but with frame data and assuming forward throw remains the same albeit with a loss of 2f of advantage, its possible we can figure out new safe jump setups at least. Cross-up tatsus I feel are definitely out regardless (from forward throw). I’m just putting this info out for discussion.

Also worth noting is the developer notes translation for Akuma:

“We have made modifications taking into account the overall gameplay balance, as well as his potential for loop setups.”

Meaning they want to remove Akuma’s ability to maintain vortex based offense, which effectively pins opponents into accepting a barrage of safe mix-up based setups. Forward throw is key to maintaining at least two iterations of guesses when executed correctly, so for them to reneg on this change pretty much flies in the face of their design decisions for 2012.

I’m adamant this change will not be undone and we have to deal with it. Akuma’s vortex setups are now cut back to stemming from flip grabs, palms and sweep. Personally I’ve never been able to get anything reliable from back throw as it leaves opponents in an awkward position for Akuma to effectively maintain momentum.

The addition of two frames at least gives us some information to work with.

213

What the fuck they have problems with Akuma’s vortex but not Ibuki’s?

214

It is pretty unanimous on other character boards that they are happy the nerf is happening but it is very unfair to Akuma and the players. Maybe Capcom will consider it or make it work the same but in a different way.

215

Well, Ibuki ONLY has the vortex. Akuma still has a pretty good zoning, 3f dp, best teleport in the game and decent footsies.
If the remove ibuki’s vortex they might as well remove the character entirely. The comparison really isn’t fair.
This doesn’t mean that I agree with Akuma’s nerfs, just sayin’

216

Ibuki vortex is maintained way easier and is not setup specific. And then there is Viper, who can just maintain pressure all day once she gets it going.

If they expect Akuma to be played a bit different they need to give him something, otherwise he plays like a weaker Ken or Ryu.

217

Yeah Viper is dumb. Too bad I don’t have enough time for this game to learn a new character any more, (especially an execution heavy one like Viper) otherwise I’d start playing her in a heartbeat.

218

@Gamogo

Correct me if I’m wrong, but shouldn’t the two extra recovery frames off of forward throw make the frame advantage 72 instead of 76?

219

It looks like E.Ryu will be the new Vanilla Akuma popularity and maybe even strength wise. Him and Cody got rediculous buffs, but some stuff im confused about if its true.

EH Doesn’t even mention the +1 on block for Lk Axe kick, also the startup of Hk is 26 not 21 (at least there) so Idk which one is right. But man, im def. learning some E.Ryu but I already planned on doing so in AE, but I dont want Akuma to lose more of his manhood

220

Yun and Yang got nerfed significantly. Fei was slightly nerfed (not that he really gave akuma problems since the matchup was originally in Akuma’s favors), and Viper gets away scotch free. Even if Akuma received nerfs, he’s guranteed S tier along with Viper, Ken, and Sagat. His worst 2 matchups got nerfed and it should be a 5-5 matchup in my opinion anyways. Even if his other matchups are going to get more difficult, Akuma will still be a beast in AE 2012.