Gouken is a bad char thats why bringing him up doesnt matter. See how that works? A char is nothing more then the sum of their tools and the stats of a char is given weight by the quality or lack there of, of their tools.
Sagat has better zoning because he can get bigger returns I.E Sagat forces Rose to jump she could eat huge damage for it while Gat will probably just eat a low fierce. He’s also much better at forcing reactions in general.
Rose does indeed have buttons that will beat Sagat’s strong buttons vs her. Namely st.hp, st.mp, and sweep. But its still a struggle for her to contain him with footsies. He generally just has more favorable options. Blocking TK is fine. I’m all for you respecting my options and not hitting buttons. And after a blocked TK it still generally favors Sagat, because up close he is more a threat to her then vice versa.
The risk in a meaty is not the same as the risk in both chars trying to take control at footsie range. In one situation we clip at one another take sum damage and establish momentum. Another is a HUGE risk to establish momentum, one that could potentially cost you the match where the risk does NOT outweigh the reward at all. I can’t even begin to explain why this comparison is folly.
What you have here are situations where yes she can do something, but he can do something too and her something is always riskier then his something. That’s what a bad match-up really is.
Thus that’s why I don’t count this in the matchup because it all depends on the players experiences. If we put them both at equal force, technically, on paper, Rose should be able to beat Sagat.
I don’t know about how Sagat vs Guile is during a fireball war but since Rose wins vs Guile I think she can do well against Sagat.
The dynamics of that match are different. When you reflect Guiles Boom you effectively do to him what he does to other non fb chars. Slow boom wrecks other chars that have no answer and it limits their options. Guiles Boom doesnt limit Sagat to the degree that it limits other chars. Also Guile is not nearly as threatening when he gets in nor does he have Sagats comeback potential. You reflect Gats fireball and you just annoy him or stop his momentum for a moment. Reflecting Guiles Boom completely shifts the match over to Rose for a time and puts Guile on the defensive.
Would it be best to move forward while his momentum has been stopped for a short moment? I know Guiles sonic booms are easier to reflect. idk how i managed to reflect near point blank distance.
Also wouldn’t it be dangerous for rose to use st.hk as a poke since Sagat can uppercut that?
The dynamic of the match up is totally different in theory than it is compared to a real match where both players do have strengths, flaws, weaknesses, etc.
If played perfectly, Rose would win the match up, easy. That means Rose won’t miss any reflects and she will win the zoning game.
But that’s not how the match works. It’s not hard to get the lifelead and meter on Sagat because he is still a fireball character nonetheless and Rose can compete with that, no matter how much more difficult it is to reflect his fireballs compared to reflecting someone like Guile.
Anyway EmblemLord, I respectfully disagree with what you’re trying to express, but I will leave you to your own opinion.
I believe I don’t win the match-up (it takes a lot for me to say Rose wins a match-up), nor I do think I go even with Sagat, but it is not a terrible match-up by any means, nor is it Rose’s top 10 worst match-ups.
Never missing a reflect would mean going beyond human reaction time because now your in a place where she is reflecting everything at every range and talking about stuff like that is pointless because where do you draw the line with stuff like that? I could say Sagat outpokes Rose every time at perfect play.
That’s just grasping and not conducive to intelligent match study or really understanding what these chars are capable of within the match.
All I truly care about is that the match-up is being discussed intelligently and that proper ways of approaching it are being discussed. When you say things like Rose wins when it should be obvious she doesn’t you will have players feeling discouraged and shitty about a match they THINK they should win. People shouldnt get hung up on shit like that but they do. So call a match for what it is then focus on the task at hand. How to win it. Ultimately the ratio itself doesnt matter much cuz people will disagree, its the spread of misinformation that i truly dislike.
Just something needs to be sure here…when talking about reflecting fireballs were are talking about fullscreen or 3/4 screen right…
What I don’t get is what does Japan find advantageous for Rose against Sagat in the matchup…
Even I don’t agree with that and I’m sure everyone else >_>
Dont take that stuff as gospel. They dont know all matches and thats clear by sum of their ratios and their match vids… Bon got blown up by Gouken but Sagat beats him handily. Thats just one example.
So i asked a question and it wasn’t properly answered. I just wanted to know if it was a good idea to move closer to Sagat when i’ve hindered his momentum for a few seconds. Life lead is something else…
Do you disagree w/ my approach to that sagat matchup? Instead of trying reflect his fireball, which btw I feel is retardedly hard, I think it’s a lot easier to simply limit it to slide under high and jump over lows. Low tiger shots have like 33 recovery frames, 45 total frames, and Sagat has huge hitboxes for your jump in.
I only reflect/absorb 1 in 4/5 tiger shots. The rest I just avoid. Sagat, Juri, and Seth are three characters who **I **don’t like to reflect against. I just think it’s not worth it. The risks far outweigh the rewards so I try to always limit my reflect based on the opponent.
If Sagat starts getting predictable with his normals, I usually just EX SPIRAL through once to let him know to quit that shit. Whether I hit him with it, I generally do but I don’t mind if I don’t, doesn’t change anything. Just throwing it out once or twice is good enough let him know. Just don’t get too trigger happy with that horrible move.
Sagat is hard. I just think there are other characters who give Rose a way harder time. Seth. Akuma. Ken. Viper. Yun. Yang. Oh and we can’t forget about Rufus now can we.
If you do get close, go to where you can safely focus bdash his normals AND make his tiger uppercut whiff. You want to stand where your normals excel. Just know that rushing down Sagat entails a LOT of staring and crouch blocking while you wait for him to make a mistake. It’s a real bad a idea to try to take the initiative since Rose has never been about having a good initiative or way in.
What do you guys think about the Vega(Claw) match?
It seems to me that C.HP cannot reliably anti air him. Also because the reach of his normals is so far he is able to punish most soul spirals on block.
Yeah sliding to avoid shots is good shit. I like FA dashing and absorbing shots over reflect anyday. Absorb not only gives you meter but it increases your super damage. Good shit imo. If you hang out just beyond Gats st.forward range, you can use st.hp and st.mp and throw those out preemptively if you smell that Sagat is gonna push a button or use TK. Spaced Spirals can be good you just gotta make sure you space them really well because Gats normals can and will stuff them even the EX version.
Focus forwarding should ONLY be used on low tiger shots. He has 39 total frames on high tiger shot and 45 total frames on low tiger shot. That leaves you with a much bigger frame window focus dashing lows than highs. It’s way easier to just reaction slide or duck his high shots that risk eating an uppercut b/c you forgot how slow rose’s dash is(21 frames when the average is around 16-18).
Just try to get within focus forward dash --> throw range and you’re good. There, you can preempt slide his tiger shots, st. rh is tiger shots, preempt reflect his tiger shots, focus forward dash, or walk forward and block while waiting for HIM to make the mistake.
so my local gen nearly beat filipino champ and bodied him for the most part, but filipino champ edged it out, are you guys ready to admit that this dude knows alot about SF and even he says its 6-4 gen.