St.mk beats 90% of her buttons. Just throwing that out there. You will not beat Sagat. You need to beat the Sagat player. One of 'those" matches.
You can beat his fireball game if you know ALL of your options against both his tiger shots. Each one requires a specific counters. Against the high tiger shot, its best you slide, reflect or block; jumping is out of the question. Against low tiger shots, you can jump over them, focus forward, or block. Throwing one fireball to nullify his is ok but any more and Rose’s horrible recovery will catch up on you. Jumping over low tiger shots is essentially to making Sagat respect your ground game. Otherwise, he’ll just tiger everything all day. Sliding under low tiger shots are difficult and can only be advised for those that know the preemptive timing.
Now if you know Sagat is going to put you in a throw uppercut 50/50, all you have to do is backdash. Plus, his throw range is pretty bad.
You should be chasing Sagat down if anything in this matchup. There’s no reason he should be pressuring you. Reflect should be used extremely sparingly since his projectile flies way too fast.
At full screen, remember to buffer for reflect.
According to Japan, it’s Rose’s only winning match up, lul.
wut
The match up chart literally had Rose going even against the all of the roster with a few 4-6s and 1 6-4 against Sagat >.>
Thanks. When I’m fighting Sagat, I don’t go into the battle looking to play defensive, but after a Tiger Knee or two, I find myself backed into the corner with no way of escaping. That’s where the 50/50 stuff usually comes into play. I feel like I can never attack him without thinking about a reversal. Whenever I seemed to be on the offensive, I ate a Tiger Uppercut; especially when I went for cross-ups. It’s like, I try my best to bait out a random Tiger Uppercut and I still end up getting hit by one. I’m going to adjust my approach and focus more on the offense now, since playing it defensively is bad. Btw, does it matter what Ultra is used in this battle?
Thanks for the feedback, everyone.
You should ALWAYS be at around st. forward range or farther. That way you can use st. forward, st. rh, and cr. strong. That way you can walk forward JUST OUTSIDE his throw range and then crouch. He’ll throw normals out and then expect some sort of tiger shot followup to pressure you out. Slide under high ones. Jump over the slower recovery low ones. If he doesn’t throw them out, then walk forward and reposition yourself. Every time you walk forward just outside throw range he has to guess whether you’re going to throw him, or throw out a normal, block, or bdash. Just be patient and push him to the corner. Once in the corner, there’s not much he can do since your slide forces him to take risky gambles with low tiger shots. Once you trained him enough, you could probably walk forward and cr. strong or walk forward and throw him with little resistance.
Both ultras have their merit. Ultra one is good for baiting out tiger uppercuts and punishing him. That way, he has to be even more careful with his uppercuts.
Ultra two forces him to be careful with his normals and makes it extremely difficult for him to tech. Just remember that Sagat has a really far back throw box.
IIRC, Sagat Balrog Abel and maybe Honda have throwboxes that are further back compared to other characters. When Sagat is crouching, you have to take a few more steps than usual if you want to throw him otherwise you’re going to whiff and get punished.
PS: I prefer U2. It’s just more solid. I pretty much always activate it after a knockdown near the corner or just activate it near the corner after a safe strong spiral blockstring.
Sorry for 2 long rants.
Thanks for the help, Jason. That was an informative read. Now I’m ready to change my approach on this match-up!
questions about abel…when he gets you with a f+mk xx forward dash he can:
do a cr.lk (or any other normal) and suddendly do a TT
start his change of direction
do an OS sweep
delay an attack to stuff your EX spiral
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1- now I know if you block his f+mk you can do cr.lp and it will beat all abel’ option (except EX TT). But when he starts mixing up these 4 options…what’s the best way to defend yourself ?
2- Does cl.mk + lp + lk helps in this match up ?
3- What’s the best normal to beat Abel’s st.lk ? Rose’s st.HK, st.MP ?
The best way to get away from abel with any character is to mash your way out.
Match-up chart is wrong. Sagat demolishes her. Hell he beat her in Super when she was actually somewhat decent and Sagat got nerf bombed. She has nothing for him. His buttons actually beat hers and the fireball war is in his favor. Tiger shots are damn hard to reflect and absorb properly and of course with Tiger Cannon attempting to do this is a risk. Thoring her own fireballs gives Sagat free revenge meter so going in on him is a better option.
Just don’t get knocked down otherwise the king is gonna have to pull out sum red wine, lay down some some rose pedals, and then go to work while shes on her backside.
In case you didn’t get the sexual innuendo, Rose gets raped on knockdowns. Yes go ahead and backdash. Give Sagat more space. That’s exactly what he wants. You are not disrupting any of Sagats plans by running away from him. But you don’t have mcuh choice either because meaty low short destroys her on wake-up.
This is about 65/35 Sagat. It’s bad.
Also slide is a liability in this match. I would highly suggest you limit your use of it. Far too easy to react to it. Though there is a way to increase it’s usefulness in this match.
sagat vs rose is 5-5 since Super. It all depends in your approach against him
Fullscreen range:
- Reflecting Sagat’s fireball has nothing to do in the matchup. It all depends on the experience of the player. It was a long believed that it was hard for Rose to do but it isn’t. You just need the eye for it. And you don’t need to be a happy reflect player. Reflect/Absorb what you want. If you feel like you won’t get the next tiger shot simply neutral jump over it or block it. Fullscreen tiger cannon will never hit Rose if she reflect fireballs. Some sagat are stupid enough to throw 1 standing tiger shot then 1 crouching: you have time to reflect one + absorb one or block or whatever…
- All you need is patience. Reflect and advance. If you reflect too much are it seems you focus them a lot he will throw in some EX versions. Block and let him waste meter. Or if it’s fullscreen surprise him and do EX reflect (for no reason EX reflect always surprises everyone -_-)
- You can get your super meter very early in the 1st round
- EX Sparks is a good thing against Tiger shots happy Sagats.
Mid-Screen range
- Rose’s normals DESTROYS sagat’s normals (far st.mk/st.HK, cr.mp)
- At max range (the range that you are when the match begins) Rose’s far st.HK beats Sagat’s standing and crouching tiger shots
- You can still reflect his fireballs. I don’t recommend the EX versions though
- You can stuff his tiger shots with far st.mk
Close range
- Meaty attacks beats Sagat
- Sagat being a big target means you need less EX bars to do your combos
- Being a big target also means that he’s vulnerable to Rose’s highest frame trap damage
In corner:
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Sagat in the corner is pretty much a dead tiger. All he can do is try to push you away with tiger shots
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At the perfect range (maybe at max range or far st.mk), you can reflect hist tiger shots, stuff his tiger shots, counter his jumps
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Sako combo ftw.
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Sagat beats you on your wake up but it isn’t as hard as Seth or Ken
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Don’t always backdash against or you are vulnerable to Easy OS from him
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Don’t focus his fireballs to approach him. Your dash travels so far and long recovery that the next tiger shot is a guaranteed hit.
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You are an easy target to him if you try to approach him by jumping
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It can be hard for you if he corners you
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Poorly spaced spirals can be a nightmare for you : cr.lp xx TIger shot / EX Tiger shot
It’s not even stop spreading misinformation plz. You gonna mess up your community that way. Rose’s normals dont beat sagats. That’s a straight up lie. St.forward rocks her world. But even if she did win the projectile war, which she doesnt since Sagat has Tiger Cannon set-ups to back his zoning up, she still dies to rushdown. Zoning is close to even with Sagat taking it when he has meter. Why? Risk vs reward. Sagat can convert a stray ex shot into more damage which means he has more to gain from a fireball war then her. Her wake-up options just arent viable. Meaty low short pressure annihilates her.
Meaties do not beat Sagat. Sagat can be safe jumped. Thats ONE type of meaty. If you do a plain old on the ground meaty on Sagat and get too comfy with it, expect to get uppercutted in the baby maker.
In the corner, first off how does she even get Sagat in the corner is the real question. But ill bite, again wtf does Sagat have to be afraid of? I’m being serious, her buttons do NOT beat the kings. St.forward > Everything she has except slide and slide is risky as hell. Sagat is a dead Tiger? No, OVERSTATEMENT. If Sagat is dead in the corner then Rose is a bloody mutilated corpse that has been sexually defiled again and again. She has NOTHING to stop opponents from mauling her. Sagat has TK, EX TK (this beats basically everything she has except EX Soul Spiral and Soul throw and you won’t do the latter randomly and EX Soul Spiral outside of combos and maxed spaced distance is unwise and tends to be very unsafe.) low step kick is another solid option.
But even if all that wasnt true then she would still be at disadvantage.
Why?
Comeback potential. Sagat’s comeback potential is FAR great er then Roses, so even if you thought they went even in everything, Sagat can still comeback ftw. All it takes is one uppercut and if Rose is throwing fireballs thats usually free meter for Gat.
How is this even when Rose is outclassed in every way possible?
Worse zoning
lower damage
less stun
less health
far worse comeback potential
Most of her buttons lose to one of Sagats buttons and the button that doesn’t puts her at risk.
This is NOT even in any way, shape or form. Can she win? Sure. Is it horrible? Nah there are worse matches, but she has nothing for him that he doesnt do better and her one main pro is footsies in this match, but her main buttons lose to Sagat’s best button so it’s moot.
^ He’s Right most of sagats normals do beat Rose’s.
In that match up i try to wait out the fireballs and reflect a few. Chip damage isn’t all that bad if you’re waiting a bit. It may not be the best way but i like to try to push my way through a little at a time.
Mid-Screen range
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Rose’s normals DESTROYS sagat’s normals (far st.mk/st.HK, cr.mp) [No not really. They can beat some of them but his st.mk can beat our far st.mk, cr.mp can be beat out by st.mk and a simple cr.lp.)
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At max range (the range that you are when the match begins) Rose’s far st.HK beats Sagat’s standing and crouching tiger shots
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You can still reflect his fireballs. I don’t recommend the EX versions though
For this i recommend absorbing them for meter and then reflecting a few. (Blocking and moving forward in small steps works fine. -
You can stuff his tiger shots with far st.mk
Close range
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Meaty attacks beats Sagat (We shouldn’t be risking out life for meaties on sagat since we can get uppercutted to the face into an ultra because some of our meaties don’t work on him.)
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Sagat being a big target means you need less EX bars to do your combos
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Being a big target also means that he’s vulnerable to Rose’s highest frame trap damage
In corner:
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Sagat in the corner is pretty much a dead tiger. All he can do is try to push you away with tiger shots
(He can also stuff our cr.normals with his cr.lp and hit confirm that into an uppercut or tiger knee to get himself out. We can’t continue to use SS pressure and our fireball pressure is not good. We get the most pressure by using u2 and waiting for a them to make an accident or to throw them imo) -
At the perfect range (maybe at max range or far st.mk), you can reflect hist tiger shots, stuff his tiger shots, counter his jumps (At that range it becomes too difficult to react to fireballs like that unless he is being to predictable.)
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Sako combo ftw.
(I’d save that meter to punish with a super since we deal far less damage than sagat in this.)
i forgot to quote this but if you scroll up you can see.
I used to play Rose and honestly just inch your way in. Stay at sweep distance and use that to try to catch Sagat’s legs. If Sagat is standing there not doing anything, hes calling your bluff to do something. At that range Sagat can react to jump ins, soul spiral or even a slide with a Tiger Uppercut/cr.lk xx Tiger Uppercut. Don’t take that bait. Walk forward a bit and sweep his ass then safe jump him and mix-up between pressure strings, cl.mk to catch tech attempts, meaty throws, and tick throws. Be aware that Sagat can OS cr.mp to catch your cl.mk so mix up what you do and your timings.
I would absorb ALOT more then I reflect. More meter = more options. Reflecting vs Sagat is merely an annoyance. Build that Super bar up and you could even get a full bar in time. Roses damage potential with Super is now much much more threatening. And if you FA shots then you build revenge too. Soul Satellites allows her to stage a truely threatening offense and offsets the power scales quite a bit in terms of who gets a better return on rushdown. With both meters stocked you now have a char that can take truely take complete control of a match AND see a huge reward for it.
I truly think reflect is a waste of time when you can just absorb and increase your resources.
Technically, Rose beats Sagat in zoning. But that’s only technically. Reason that Rose wins technically is because she does have the tools to completely shutdown his fireball game, but it takes a lot of guessing and a lot of outplaying. I don’t think that it’s a 35-65, 60-40, or a 50-50. I think it’s more slightly in Sagat’s favor (45-55) because my example of a 6-4 match up would be more Balrog who shuts down Rose once he gets in but Rose still has more of a chance.
The reason why I would mix up reflect and absorb is because absorb can help you get on Sagat. Absorb has a lot of recovery and allows Sagat to continue to throw more fireballs effectively, but it doesn’t mean that’s a good option. The minor annoyance of reflect can create some momentum and stop him from throwing a fireball/forcing him to match it >.>
Sagat isn’t a match where you can just sit in one standstill position. You have to constantly change your space because there are specific ranges where Rose do win.
With meter and stocked U1, I think Rose wins the fireball war just completely. At the beginning, since it’s hard to constantly reflect on a very consistent level, I think that Sagat slightly wins.
Mid range Rose can compete with a few preemptive reflects, just like against Ryu.
Rose can win full screen, but Rose is ideally a character space out of Sagat st.mk range where the most Sagat can do is throw a few fireballs or kara upper/tiger knee in which he’s taking a risk or not formulating too terrible of an offense.
And also, you don’t have to be that close to Sagat to do your close attacks. Use that to advantage plz.
But the reason why Sagat slightly does win the match up is because Sagat can take more risks in places where taking risks is necessary and not even be in fear of eating too much damage.
But it’s not any worse than 4.5-5.5 in his favor.
He wins because Rose has to be better then Sagat to beat him.
That is the definition of a losing match-up. Where both chars do not have to work equally hard to beat the other. Rose makes a mistake she could die. Period. Not so for sagat and he has to make TONS of mistakes. And Sagat can put her in spots where literally she has to just block it out and hope for the best. She can put Sagat in no such situation.
Mid screen guess reflect? Yeah sure, and if Sagat didn’t do anything then she is wide open. Which is a shame because honestly, reflect isn’t hard to react to when done at anywhere but mid screen. If it’s done beyond that and Sagat catches that she reflected he can just jump and avoid his shot or FA dash and gain meter and they are still at neutral. So now she has to put herself in spots where she could potentially get hurt badly, just to gain momentum and it’s not 6/4? Nope, sorry doesn’t work that way.
Once Rose has u1 she can indeed blow up Sagat’s tiger shot game midscreen. Cept Sagat now has another option. He can just attack and of course Rose dies to rushdown. Or he could timer scam her. See Rose isn’t all that great at opening people up either. So once she is down on life and has her U1 he can just sit on block. Yes she can rush him but that carries risk as well. She could get blown up by TU fadc and be that much closer to losing because of it. That’s why FAing shots is so important. You want the option of U1 WITHOUT losing a ton of life to get it. But in this case if both chars have been absorbing fireballs then they BOTH have ultras more then likely and now it goes back to favoring Sagat again.
There is no range where Rose wins at all. This is wishful thinking. She is at slight disadvantage at all times except when she is stocked with both meters and has life lead. Otherwise Sagat comes out slightly on top at all times.
She has to take risks to win. Sagat does not.
That’s the match in a nutshell.
Sagat’s cr.HP is so retarded against Rose. It beats her HK, ex spiral, and slide. If that counter hit word pops up on the screen, Sagat can just mash uppercut to link off it.
He could also mash Super if he’s super pro and wants to make womenz underpants wet.
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Aren’t these normals that you said in your match-up thread also ? I was referring to them.
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She doesn’t win the projectile war. But she can keep up with the player to a minimum. Early reflects on tiger shots will force her to block the tiger cannon from fullscreen. Other than this she will be hit.
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The thing is that for Sagat to rushdown he still needs to get in which Rose can counter. Yes he does need to score a knockdown but how much time will it take him to arrive near Rose if he does a knockdown fullscreen ? Midscreen yeah I agree things can get messy for her tho.
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Like I said, you don’t need to reflect every tiger shots from Sagat. Rose can reflect the ones that she wants and its very easy to see which ones are coming (between regular and EX) its only the speed that can confuse the Rose player. If Sagat players are really waiting to score an EX Tiger Shot on Rose to throw their U2 on her they will wait for while against a competent Rose player
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low shorty meaty vs Sagat is a 50% chance if you mix it up. Maybe sagat will TU or maybe not. I don’t think its an advantage to any of them
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Good luck with Sagat spamming st.mk, it won’t change a difference for both of them. Ok Rose’s normals gets beat by this but at the same time it doesn’t improve Sagat’s situation. We are saying the same thing about Rose using meaties against Sagat. If Sagat gets to happy with it I could just do st.HP to stuff it. Same situation in both just more risky to Rose though.
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What about TK ? If I block I don’T see how the situation is in your favor
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I say that she can put Sagat in a corner because most of the time Sagat’s comfort zone would be fullscreen and throw fireballs. Hence sometime he would take the risk to back off a bit to get the proper space for it. Also everytime that Rose scores a spiral on him it brings him closer to the corner. Low step kick can be a surprise attack against Rose since most of the time she’s not prepared for that.
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Its true that Sagat’s comeback potential is huge against Rose. Just like a Rose that plays correctly and stays on her toes can good quite well.
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Worst zoning ? I agree Sagat can get the upper hand by changing the speed of his T.S and confuse Rose but other than that I don’t see a difference. Maybe because the Sagat players I’ve fought seriously weren’t good to be ahead of me.
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I won’t discuss about damage / stun / health because it doesn’T matter: Gouken has better damage / stun / health and it’s still in Rose’s favor by far.
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From my point of view on, I agree that in a lot of aspects Sagat can outplay Rose but I don’t see it to be a big gap.
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It’s the same thing against chun: Chun has potentially better footsies, she doesn’t need to play zoning, etc. In my point of view she can “beat” Rose in every aspects. She even locks Rose if she gets her U1. But is the match up in her favor ? nope, it’s pretty even. Maybe 5.5-4.5 in Sagat’s favor. I dunno I could say 6-4 too but people think so dramatically when they see numbers… >_>