If we can do well against Guile, there’s no reason that we can’t do well against DeeJay.
you can’t go for a cross-up against Dee Jay. His up kicks have hella weird properties and he’s harder to pressure while he’s knocked down compared to pressuring Guile.
Dee Jay’s harder, but IMO Rose wins that match up if she’s solid and can wait out the match.
Rose has better normals and Dee Jay has no great way to deal with Soul Satellite pressure or any type of frametraps for that matter.
I think he can do his dash into hp on your wake up backdash or ex dash into it to OS you.
What dash? I’ve talked to a good Deejay player and they told me that Rose’s backdash is too long/fast for any of Deejay’s OS options to work. Deejay has to try and read a backdash in order to punish it, and that’s risky.
oh i was thinking about Dudley for a moment lol. That was correct for Deejay.
I have a question…I was fighting this great chun li one day and they had me locked down trying to bait a reflect or fireball…I did a HP reflect and it stopped Hosenka,so is this a normal thing that happens or just a glitch???
That’s normal. Chun goes over fireballs but isn’t invul to them afaik.
Hosenka is the ultra.
The invincibility of the Hosenka either ran out or you had already recovered from reflect for it to hit them.
It just hit chun,I didn’t have to block anything,if i recovered early i think i would have been blocking it, IDK,I’m still gonna use this as a option until i get knocked out of it i guess
The front page is going to be updated over the next couple of days as I fix the template a bit, and make it more organized. Thank you for your patience.
Which Ultra do you guys usually use when it’s a mirror match? I tried Ultra 1, but it doesn’t seem like it works very well if they know what they’re doing.
Doesn’t matter.
lol.
In “Same level” mirror match U2 is more useful,you can make difference with cheap dammage.U1 is too situational.
Here are some new matchups written according to my new, proposed template. Feel free to give your input. I would prefer to see if there’s a general consensus on the new template before moving on to discussing the actual matchup details. Matchup numbers are included but not vitally necessary; feel free to dispute them but don’t fixate on them.
Cody Matchup
[details=Spoiler]
Cody Matchup
Matchup Figure: 4.5/5.5
Overview
This matchup will test your ability to apply pressure and handle it. Both Cody and Rose have mixups that revolve around frame traps. Both have strong AA and weak reversal options. Cody, however, has vastly superior damage output and superior close normal. Rose, on the other hand, has better pokes. Still, she cannot win merely by keeping Cody out. Thankfully, Cody’s own poor reversals means Rose has an easier time on the offense.
Approach the footsies game with the same caution as you would in fights against grapplers. Block and tech intelligently. Pressure aggressively when you have the opportunity.
Picking Ultras
Ultra 1 is not practical in this matchup because it can only really AA. Ultra 2 is a decent option that gives Rose momentum and mixup opportunities. Do not activate it at far range as Cody can use Bad Stone to snuff your orbs.
The Far-Range/Fireball Game
Rose’s fireballs are largely useless in this matchup. Cody can match them with his own projectiles, slide right under them or focus them to build Ultra meter. If he has Ultra 2 stocked he can punish Rose severely for throwing out from any range closer than a full screen away. At footsies and jumping range Cody can easily go through Rose’s fireballs with Zonk Knuckle or EX Ruffian Kick. Both options lead to good damage and a knockdown, so Rose really has no reason to risk so much by throwing a single measly fireball It is worth noting that Rose cannot reflect Cody’s Bad Stone. She cannot sit around and build meter for free.
The Midrange/Footsies Game
St. MK and st. HK are excellent options as usual. The former is excellent for whiff-punishing with Cody’s slide. Unfortunately for Rose, Cody has no real reason to be throwing out constant pokes.
His FA has great range and startup so he can catch st. HK and cr. MK and even st. MK with a level 2 if Rose is being predictable. A successful jump-in is also incredibly rewarding for Cody since he can easily combo for more than 300 damage meterless.
Cody’s 3f cr. LK is probably his best tool against Rose. Cr. LK xx MK Ruffian Kick or HP Criminal Upper will consistently punish all non-max ranged slides and Spirals. Rose cannot be sloppy with her spacing against Cody.
Cody’s Crack Kick (towards HK) can be quite a thorn in Rose’s side. It is +1 on block and can be linked into an easy MK Ruffian Kick for good meterless damage and corner carry. It can also go over Rose’s slide.
Cody’s slide has rather short range but it has the same startup, blockstun and hitstun values as Rose’s. It can be used to stuff her slide if he does it pre-emptively. The same applies for Rose. Whiff punish with st. MK or cr. MP xx MK Spiral if in range.
Applying Pressure
Outside of wakeup Ultra, Rose only has to worry about Cody throwing out EX Zonk Knuckle or EX Criminal Upper. The former has decent invincibility but slow startup. The latter only has a little invincibility but is completely throw-invincible.
Cody’s crouch tech is better than most thanks to the speed and reach on his cr. LK. Rose needs to have airtight links for her frame-traps to avoid being hit out of them by that cr. LK.
Anti-Air
All of Rose’s AA options are viable here but be aware of the hitboxes on j. HP and j. HK, his two best jumping normal. The former needs to be timed very carefully whereas the latter can hit from very far away.
Cody’s AA is excellent so Rose should not be jumping in on him recklessly. He has st. HK, back MP, st. HP, cr. HP and HK Ruffian Kick as AAs. None of those moves are to be trifled with.
Punishing
Max-ranged Zonk Knuckles can’t be punished due to pushback and Rose’s lack of a fast and cancellable long-ranged. However, improperly spaced ones can be punished by cr. MP or cr. HP xx MK/EX Spiral depending on how close they are.
Rose needs to be able to tell apart the different strengths of Cody’s Criminal Upper. The LP version is only -5 on block, making it completely safe at max range. All other versions are punishable by cr. MP xx MK/EX Spiral. Cr. HP xx Spiral will not work as a mid-screen punish due to CU’s pushback.
All of his Ruffian Kicks that don’t hit at max range can be punished with cr. MP or cr. HP xx Spiral depending on the spacing.
Handling Pressure
Cody’s frame-trap game is incredible. It is very safe against a character with poor reversals such as Rose and it can lead to highly damaging and practical hitconfirms. Crouch tech intelligently. Do not mash. You will be punished hard. And unless you’re about to die, always take the throw if the alternative is likely to be a high damaging CH combo.
Do not try to escape non-crossups with EX ST as Cody can punish you with cr. HP xx HP Criminal Upper or worse very time.
Cody can stagger his cr. LP (do a couple of jabs then inch forward to close the distance then do more jabs) thanks to it being +2 on block so watch the rhythm of your crouch tech.
Learn to recognize the gaps in Cody’s blockstring where you can EX Spiral him out. Of course, do not do this recklessly.
EX Spiral will beat cl. HP, cr. HP and Stomach Blow (towards MP) because of their slow startups. Keep in mind if he does something like cr. LP linked to Stomach Blow, EX Spiral may lose because of the frame advantage from the previous cr. LP.
EX Zonk Knuckle is one of his most damaging frame traps. EX Zonk Knuckle FADC combos do incredible stun and damage so always watch out when Cody has 3 bars.
Cody also has ways to crack open down-back with his damaging and long-reaching overhead. The startup is average (18f) but it can be hard to block. Learn to recognize the situations and ranges where Cody would want to throw it out and be ready to block high.
Concluding Tips
· Be very patient; playing recklessly or panicking under pressure will get you destroyed
· Pay very close attention to Cody’s mixups and any patterns he may have.
· Don’t be afraid to press the offensive against Cody if you get the opportunity since he is one of the few characters Rose can pressure relatively safely
· Don’t be afraid to sit and block
· Cody, despite what his frame-trapping ability might suggest, is not a rushdown character and is perfectly at home with playing a defensive game and waiting for an opening to start his offense. Do not play into his hand by going at him recklessly[/details]
Makoto Matchup
[details=Spoiler]
Makoto Matchup
Matchup Figure: 5.5/4.5
Overview
Rose has superiority at fireball and footsies range. Makoto can challenge Rose’s options at footsies range but she is not in her element until she gets Rose in the corner. Until she gets Rose there though, the matchup is firmly stacked against her. Rose can keep Makoto out fairly well and she can pressure her effectively when the opportunity rises.
Picking Ultras
Ultra choice in this matchup comes down to personal preference and familiarity.
Ultra 1 is good for catching Tsurugi and Makoto’s jump.
Ultra 2 can be used for its traditional role but it can be used as AA as well. Makoto cannot position her jumps very well thanks to her immobility on the ground so U2 can be used to catch her.
The Far-Range/Fireball Game
Rose can throw fireballs quite safely from long range unless Makoto has U2 stocked. Unless Makoto is down to her last pixels of health however and Rose wants to force her hand, there are better ranges to play this matchup at.
The Midrange/Footsies Game
Rose’s pokes are incredibly dominant in this matchup. St. MK, cr. MP and st. HK are great as usual. Slide is very easy to space safely since Makoto has a horrible walk speed.
This isn’t to say Makoto is free by any means. She can punish Rose’s slide if she whiffs it with her 7f sweep. St. MP and cr. MP buffered into Hayate is her ticket in if Rose is whiffing pokes. Makoto has a great FA as well so be wary of it.
Applying Pressure
Makoto has poor defensive options so feel free to pressure her aggressively. At midscreen, Rose can beat her backdash with o-s sweep. Meaty cr. LK is safe against her EX Oroshi. Cl. MK will escape EX Karakusa but lose to U2.
Anti-Air
Rose should not have a problem AA-ing Makoto because of her predictable jump arcs. Cr. HP and ST will solidly beat her standard jump-ins. Slide is good for crossing under her as well. FA can beat or evade normal versions of Tsurugi. Cr. MK is a bit risky since Tsurugi will beat it. U1 will beat all her jump-ins as long as she isn’t going to smack Rose right in the face.
Makoto has stellar AA herself. Cr. MK puts her hurthox very low to the ground. St. MP has active frames that last for days. She has a slew of strong air-to-air normal to use as well. If timed correctly, EX Karakusa can grab jump-ins when Rose lands. Finally, Makoto’s Fukiage is the most damaging anti-crossup in the whole game. She can easily follow it up into another Fukiage then an EX Tsurugi for incredible damage, stun and knockdown. You cannot crossup Makoto after a Spiral knockdown.
Punishing
All normal, uncharged versions of Hayate (dash punch) are punishable with cr. MP or cr. HP xx Spiral on block. The EX version is only -4 on block so if spaced at max range it is safe. Otherwise, punish it with cr. LP xx LK Spiral or her standard hitconfirm bread ‘n butter.
Her Oroshis (overhead chop) are typically safe due to their pushback.
Fukiage whiffs on grounded opponents so punish according to spacing.
Makoto’s U1 can be punished with U1 or cr. HP xx Spiral.
The last hit of a blocked U2 can be focused for a full level 3 crumple.
Handling Pressure
Do not mash crouch tech. Makoto can blow it up with her normal or she can Tsurugi your face in.
EX Spiral is pretty much worthless in this matchup. St. MP blows it up for free. EX Oroshi beats it. Reversal U1 punishes it. It will only beat throws.
Neutral jump or cl. MK the command throw if you read it. Remember that Makoto can kara-cancel it for additional range.
Block EX Oroshi. Pay attention to the yellow flash.
If you get put in the corner, pray to whatever deity you believe in and be ready to block or guess your way out.
Don’t try to escape pressure with EX Spiral or EX ST. She can and will catch you with EX Hayate every time.
Concluding Tips
· Space yourself properly and this match becomes much easier.
· Don’t freak out under pressure.[/details]
Ryu Matchup
[details=Spoiler]
Ryu Matchup
Matchup Figure: 4.5/5.5
Overview
This matchup is a test of your fundamentals and yomi. Neither character has gimmicks to fall back on; both have to rely on solid play. On the other hand, Ryu does have his comeback factor with SRK FADC U1. Rose can neutralize Ryu’s fireball game and out-poke him. Ryu on the other hand can consistently punish Rose for poor spacing, does much better damage and has a threatening reversal. Rose’s goal is to keep Ryu out but capitalize on mixup opportunities if she gets them. Ryu’s goal is to get a knockdown and mix her up.
Picking Ultras
Ultra 1 is a very damaging punish for poorly spaced fireballs. Unfortunately it does nothing else. Rose cannot use it as AA because Ryu can escape it by reacting to the animation with air EX Tatsu. It isn’t vital to pick Ultra 1 either because Rose can shut down Ryu’s fireball game without it.
Ultra 2 serves its standard purpose as a way to gain space or to set up mixups. However, activating it from far away is a good way of wasting this Ultra because Ryu can easily snuff the orbs with his own projectiles. However, it is still the better Ultra in this matchup because it provides Rose opportunities and tools she doesn’t typically have.
The Far-Range/Fireball Game
Rose shuts down Ryu’s fireball zoning completely. Ryu can only throw fireballs as blockstrings or around the footsies range. Any fireball thrown from outside of the range of Rose’s st. HK can be reflected on reaction. Slide can be used to stuff close-ranged fireballs but requires a healthy amount of prediction and can be punished if whiffed or spaced incorrectly.
The Midrange/Footsies Game
Rose’s st. MK dominates Ryu’s cr. MK. St. HK will whiff if done at the same time as Ryu’s cr. MK but can be used to punish. Cr. MP is also good for punishing whiffed cr. MK.
Sweep can whiff punish Ryu’s cr. MK and cr. HK. Due to it’s slow startup, Rose needs to be anticipating those moves and not merely reacting to them.
Slide can be used to close the gap if Ryu whiffs a normal. Unfortunately they are also highly punishable and should be used with caution. Level 2 FA can be used to punish predictable slides, sweep can punish whiffed slides and reversal SRK can be used to punish non-max range slides.
Applying Pressure
Generally Rose should not be overextending her pressure because that would open her up to risk.
Be careful about using cr. MP xx MK Spiral as pressure. Ryu can SRK through it since it is not a true blockstring and he can reversal SRK the MK Spiral if Rose does not do it at max range.
Ryu can easily reversal through Rose’s frame traps, especially because they require airtight links.
Anti-Air
Rose’s standard AA options are all useful here but they require her to be particularly attentive.
Ryu’s j. HP has a great hitbox and can trade with cr. HP. Rose should be aware of this when she is low on life. She also cannot low profile the j. HP with cr. MK because it hits so deep.
Punishing
Punishing Ryu is fairly straightforward. As always, go for the most damaging options.
A poorly spaced sweep from Ryu can be punished by cr. MP xx EX Spiral if Rose is within range.
Whiffed Tatsu can be punished with cr. MP.
Both of Ryu’s Ultras can be punished with a full level 3 FA. Jump towards Ryu and FA to punish U1 and simply FA after U2.
Handling Pressure
Ryu’s mixup options are fairly standard.
Block patiently if Ryu is throwing out frame-trap normal like cr. MP. Be ready to tech if he is using cr. LP. Always pay attention to how much meter he has and whether he has Ultra stocked. Take the throw when the alternative is an EX Tatsu or FADC SRK into U1.
EX Spiral is useless in this matchup. EX Soul Throw will help you escape crossups unless it autocorrects in which case you will be punished severely.
Concluding Tips
· Be on point with your anti-air and anti-fireball game
· Be on point with your footsies and spacing
· Block and tech carefully because Ryu can easily turn the tables with one big combo
· Always be careful about pressuring Ryu when has meter and don’t take unnecessary risks[/details]
T. Hawk Matchup
[details=Spoiler]
T. Hawk Matchup
Matchup Figure: 5.5/4.5
Overview
Like with all grappler matchups, Rose wins against T. Hawk by keeping him and whittling down his health with pokes, AA and fireballs. Unlike other grappler matchups however, T. Hawk has some unique and tricky tools to get in with. Fortunately, Rose has all the tools to counter T. Hawk with but they require the player to know exactly what situations to use them in and the reactions to successfully react to the situations. As usual, the risk-reward ratio is skewed against Rose. She cannot safely mixup Hawk. She can keep Hawk out the whole round and then lose to a single hard knockdown and a series of good guesses on Hawk’s part. This matchup is generally a grind and requires you to be on point the entire time.
Picking Ultras
Both Ultras have their merit in this matchup. U1 is a fantastic punish for unsafe Condor Dives. U2 is great for providing that (slightly) safe pressure that Rose sorely lacks against grapplers. If your opponent cannot properly space his dives or mashes on Tomahawk Buster or Mexican Typhoon, use U1 to punish his recklessness. If your opponent plays safely however, U2 is more helpful and can help you pressure T. Hawk after knockdowns. Keep in mind though he can always throw you if you get too close and your orbs rotate away.
The Far-Range/Fireball Game
T. Hawk has the unique ability with Condor Dive to punish fireballs without having to be within jumping range. This ability compounded with Rose’s extremely slow fireball recovery makes throwing Soul Spark incredibly dangerous and unrewarding. A successfully thrown fireball will typically grant you a negligible amount of meter, a little ground and miniscule chip. A poorly spaced fireball equals 120 damage (or 150 if T. Hawk burns meter) to the dome plus knockdown. Do not bother throwing fireballs unless you are nearly a full screen distance away where it is safe and you have nothing else to do. At midscreen Rose has way safer options to keep T. Hawk out. Please refrain from shooting yourself in the face.
The Midrange/Footsies Game
Unfortunately I have not played any Hawks with good footsies so my knowledge in this area is sadly limited. What I do know is T. Hawk actually has decent far-reaching pokes though he can’t get much damage off of them. Unlike Zangief, Hawk cannot o-s his pokes into specials. They are still good though. St. MK will whiff-punish Rose’s slide, st. HK will punish attempts to jump after a knockdown, and cr. MK reaches a fair distance and goes under Rose’s st. HK.
Rose can more than match Hawk’s pokes however. St. MK will beat cr. MK. Rose can beat st. MK by simply not sliding (not that she has much reason to get in T. Hawk’s grill to begin with) and staying out of its range. Hawk’s st. HK does good damage but you can avoid it by crouching and not jumping recklessly. With a decent amount of anticipation and good spacing, you can whiff punish it with cr. HK. Ultimately, if Hawk is at a life deficit, he cannot stand around and poke at you all day; he needs to go in.
Applying Pressure
The first rule about pressuring grapplers is that you should not do it unless you really need to squeeze out that life lead. The second rule about pressuring grapplers is that you should not do it unless you really need to squeeze out that life lead. Basically do not take unnecessary risks.
Unfortunately, cl. MK is not as useful in this matchup as it would be against other grapplers since T. Hawk has EX Tomahawk Buster. If your opponent is inclined to mash that on wakeup, just stand slightly outside of his command throw range and whiff a normal to try and bait out his DP. If you notice he likes to mash the command throw instead, use cl. MK to punish that but only if you’re confident you can land the 1f link follow-up combo. You’ll eat dirt if you can’t.
Jump-back LK is a ridiculously good instant overhead in this matchup, especially after a hard knockdown. A safe-jump fierce followed by instant overhead j. LK will beat his command grabs (obviously) and reversal EX Tomahawk Buster. You can do it after a techable knockdown that puts you directly next to T. Hawk. Keep in mind this will lose to U2.
I do think it is possible though for T. Hawk to EX Condor Spire and throw you after the instant j. LK however. I haven’t seen anyone do that but be on the look out. It should be possible.
Other than instant overhead j. LK, safe-jumped j. HP->cr. HP xx EX Spark should beat mashing if you’re willing to burn the meter.
Anti-Air
This is where the match gets tricky. T. Hawk has one option extra than most characters with his Condor Dive. You have to be very on point with your AA against T. Hawk. Always pay attention to his jump arc. A well-timed cr. HP will beat his other jump-ins but will lose to Condor Dive.
T. Hawk can do an early low-angle Condor Dive into a command grab or do a high dive to beat out cr. HP or an early ST. Always delay your AA until the last possible moment to see if he’s going to dive or just use a normal jumping attack, then respond as appropriate.
ST is actually useful in this matchup. Either delay it like you would for an SRK so it catches T. Hawk in the middle of his Condor Dive or do it the moment you see the opponent go airborne. Note that ST will lose (even the EX version) if your opponent dives immediately after his jump.
Slide will help you dodge high-angle Condor Dive and reset the situation but it’s risky at close range where can do a normal jump-in and command grab you if you’re still in recovery. Play cautiously.
Punishing
Only EX Condor Spire is safe on block at -3. The rest of the versions are -7, -8, and -10 on block respectively. You can anticipate Condor Spire and neutral jump to punish though if you guess wrong, Hawk *can *Condor Dive behind you and command throw you. A safer and more reliable option is to use cr. MK xx MK Spiral o-s. If cr. MK whiffs nothing comes out but if hits a Condor Spire, you’ll get the MK Spiral punish.
T. Hawk will usually throw out Condor Spire to maybe gain a bit of meter and ground from full screen and use it to catch backdashes up close. The main version of Condor Spire you want to watch out for is the EX version which has a bit of startup invincibility and goes through projectiles. You can’t punish it in most cases but you can bait it and get Hawk to waste meter.
First you need to learn how to recognize unsafe Condor Dives. Once you learn that, punishing them is pretty easy. Soul Piede (forward HK) and st. HK are reliable and damaging punishes. If you want to fish for cr. MP xx MK Spiral, slide will put you into that range. Reversal U1 will punish unsafe Condor Dives hard.
Handling Pressure
This is the nasty bit. T. Hawk has some damaging punishes for escape attempts, all of which result in knockdown. Thankfully, they all require a decent amount of guesswork. Condor Dive, Condor Spire, and close-ranged cr. HK will eat your backdashes for breakfast. st. HK and Tomahawk Buster will beat jump attempts.
T. Hawk has a great safe-jump off LP Tomahawk Buster. Pay attention to what the fuck he does and respond appropriately. If you try and backdash, Hawk will simply do another jump upon landing and catch you in your recovery. He can cross you up with his body splash or he can choose not to. Cross up splash will rape if you try to reversal EX ST out but EX Spiral will get you out safe. If you EX Spiral against non-crossup Splash, you will get your face planted in the ground or in the worst case eat a fat Mexican/Native American butt to the face. Thankfully if your opponent fails at life and can’t time his non-crossup safe jump properly, you can just EX ST him for free.
There is no guaranteed way out of proper grappler mixups. All I can say is pay attention to your opponent’s habits, do not freak out and mash buttons, and keep your head on your shoulders instead of facerolling your stick/pad/keyboard.
Concluding Tips
· Do not take unnecessary risks
· Make T. Hawk come to you and kill him poke by poke, AA by AA, punish by punish
· Don’t freak out the moment you get knocked down - keep a clear head, don’t follow your first impulse, and pay attention to what your opponent is doing
· Don’t drop combos – you’ll eat a command throw for it
· Be on point with your AA. Winning this matchup consistently requires Rose to transform into a complete No-Fly Zone
· Get your spacing and footsies game down. Once you shut T. Hawk out of the sky, he’s going to have to commit to the ground game, which is what Rose excels at. [/details]
hmm I didn’t see it that way but it does look better! Thanks for the suggestion!
I feel like this match up thread is more organized than a lot more around this forum lol
[LEFT]
[/LEFT]
Ryu Matchup
Matchup Figure: 4.5/5.5
6-4, or some amount in our favor generally.
Overview
This matchup is a test of your fundamentals and yomi. Neither character has gimmicks to fall back on; both have to rely on solid play. On the other hand, Ryu does have his comeback factor with SRK FADC U1. Rose can neutralize Ryu’s fireball game and out-poke him. Ryu on the other hand can consistently punish Rose for poor spacing, does much better damage and has a threatening reversal. Rose’s goal is to keep Ryu out but capitalize on mixup opportunities if she gets them. Ryu’s goal is to get a knockdown and mix her up.
Very General; but yeah, that’s how it generally works; except you have quite a few gimmicks you are able to fall back on.
Picking Ultras
Ultra 1 is a very damaging punish for poorly spaced fireballs. Unfortunately it does nothing else. Rose cannot use it as AA because Ryu can escape it by reacting to the animation with air EX Tatsu. It isn’t vital to pick Ultra 1 either because Rose can shut down Ryu’s fireball game without it.
Wrong - It serves more than badly space fireballs; it shuts down all fireballs from fullscreen and midscreen (like without the threat of eating atleast 67% of 500 damage from any position in the screen), he isn’t allowed to throw fireballs. In addition to that, he is not allowed to do any blockstrings for chip; effectively making him lose out on damage output. Also a fair punish ultra for Shoryukens that can be thrown out to show that they don’t have fear; you block it; punish, now they’re even more fearful of this Ultra. If Ryu has no meter; you win the fireball match even more, he just killed his ability to jump your fireballs.
Ultra 2 serves its standard purpose as a way to gain space or to set up mixups. However, activating it from far away is a good way of wasting this Ultra because Ryu can easily snuff the orbs with his own projectiles. However, it is still the better Ultra in this matchup because it provides Rose opportunities and tools she doesn’t typically have.
It’s not the better ultra though. She gains maybe an extra throw or an extra 60-70 damage worth of chip. It’s a gimmick ultra. And that’s a given. It has its uses, but seeing what you wrote down for Ultra 1, it is clear to me that you didn’t know the full potential of Illusion Spark.
The Far-Range/Fireball Game
Rose shuts down Ryu’s fireball zoning completely. Ryu can only throw fireballs as blockstrings or around the footsies range. Any fireball thrown from outside of the range of Rose’s st. HK can be reflected on reaction. Slide can be used to stuff close-ranged fireballs but requires a healthy amount of prediction and can be punished if whiffed or spaced incorrectly.
1 of 2 ideal ranges in this match up. You gain more meter from all situations on the screen; that’s big.
The Midrange/Footsies Game
Rose’s st. MK dominates Ryu’s cr. MK. St. HK will whiff if done at the same time as Ryu’s cr. MK but can be used to punish. Cr. MP is also good for punishing whiffed cr. MK.
Sweep can whiff punish Ryu’s cr. MK and cr. HK. Due to it’s slow startup, Rose needs to be anticipating those moves and not merely reacting to them.
Slide can be used to close the gap if Ryu whiffs a normal. Unfortunately they are also highly punishable and should be used with caution. Level 2 FA can be used to punish predictable slides, sweep can punish whiffed slides and reversal SRK can be used to punish non-max range slides.
**Also, I’m going to add that even if you feel that you spaced slide and Spirals perfectly, you probably didn’t. And if you didn’t, you’re going to get whiffed punish for both attacks; slide is good to use sparingly in the match, but like, sweep whiff punishes like everything Rose with sweep. Also; those aren’t the only normals that are ideal for the match up; I feel that Rose’s cr. forward and sweep deserves a mention in usage, because it’s fairly safe from many ranges. Also, maybe crouching short.
**
Applying Pressure
Generally Rose should not be overextending her pressure because that would open her up to risk.
Be careful about using cr. MP xx MK Spiral as pressure. Ryu can SRK through it since it is not a true blockstring and he can reversal SRK the MK Spiral if Rose does not do it at max range.
Ryu can easily reversal through Rose’s frame traps, especially because they require airtight links.
Frametraps don’t require airtight links, even with Rose. Overextending should not be done, of course, especially because we have to fight for our damage and that’s the only thing keeping this from being a dominate match up. Mix-up your untrue blockstrings; this goes for every match up. Sometimes, use cr. strong xx lp spark, sometimes use the spirals. spark beats DPs and is fairly safe due to the pushback; very few characters can actually punish it on block or mash reversal through it. ALTHOUGH YOU CANNOT SAFE JUMP RYU; DO AN EMPTY JUMP FROM TIME TO TIME, EXPECTING TO TECH A THROW. IF HE DPs, YOU WILL BLOCK. IF HE THROWS, YOU WILL TECH A THROW. AFTER A WHILE, HE WILL BE TRAINED TO THROW BECAUSE HE FEELS IT IS SAFE AND HE KNOWS THAT DPing is RISKY BUSINESS. THEN, YOU WILL BE ABLE TO DO AN EMPTY JUMP, land, sc. forward into whatever you want.
Anti-Air
Rose’s standard AA options are all useful here but they require her to be particularly attentive.
Ryu’s j. HP has a great hitbox and can trade with cr. HP. Rose should be aware of this when she is low on life. She also cannot low profile the j. HP with cr. MK because it hits so deep.
Slide deserves a mention. And cr. HP doesn’t trade very often with his j. fierce; most of the time it beats out his j. fierce. This is one of those times you should mix up slide and cr. fierce however.
Punishing
Punishing Ryu is fairly straightforward. As always, go for the most damaging options.
A poorly spaced sweep from Ryu can be punished by cr. MP xx EX Spiral if Rose is within range.
Whiffed Tatsu can be punished with cr. MP.
Both of Ryu’s Ultras can be punished with a full level 3 FA. Jump towards Ryu and FA to punish U1 and simply FA after U2.
Punish both ultras by jumping in; it does more damage because it scales less. Punish Shoryus with the most damaging combo for the amount of meter; usually no meter cr. fierce spiral is the most effective, but otherwise, change depending on the situation because even though people say that meter is important (it is), she gains meter back so fast and that kill (although breaking the rules of meter management) might be the essential decision you have to make at the cost of a few meters.
Handling Pressure
Ryu’s mixup options are fairly standard.
Block patiently if Ryu is throwing out frame-trap normal like cr. MP. Be ready to tech if he is using cr. LP. Always pay attention to how much meter he has and whether he has Ultra stocked. Take the throw when the alternative is an EX Tatsu or FADC SRK into U1.
EX Spiral is useless in this matchup. EX Soul Throw will help you escape crossups unless it autocorrects in which case you will be punished severely.
If you feel that Ryu is going to go for his three option situation, just back dash (unless in the corner). It beats all three options. If not, you shouldn’t be obsessively crouch teching anyway; learn to delay tech. EX Spiral is not useless in this match up, Ryu has untrue blockstrings; EX Spiral goes through his crouch forward fireball that he may end his untrue blockstrings in or cr. forward into anything he wants to do, actually.
Concluding Tips
· Be on point with your anti-air and anti-fireball game
· Be on point with your footsies and spacing
· Block and tech carefully because Ryu can easily turn the tables with one big combo
· Always be careful about pressuring Ryu when has meter and don’t take unnecessary risks
Sure.
I wish I had red font :(.****
It’s general because that’s the idea bub.
Problem with that being Ryu has little[SIZE=4] t[/SIZE][SIZE=4]o no incentive to throw out fireballs in the first place, thus limiting U1’s usefulness. That it can shut down blockstrings for chip is hardly incentive enough to use it when Rose could pick U2 which could cover her offense.[/SIZE]
Its a poor punish for “fearless” but risky SRKs because by the time Rose gets that Ultra meter, Ryu will probably have enough meter to FADC and make them safe. You’re right that U1 shuts down Ryu’s ability to jump over fireballs without meter but that’s incredibly situational and Ryu has many ways to build meter without risking that U1.
[SIZE=4]I would gladly take that extra chip and throw damage over the “full potential” of countering options that Ryu can’t really go to in the first place like throwing fireballs from fullscreen or as blockstrings, because as you mentioned, EX Spiral goes through cr. MK xx Fireball. U2 gives Rose options she doesn’t normally have, even if it they aren’t very good. U1 doesn’t bring anything new to the table. [/SIZE]
I mentioned sweep, yeah. Cr. MK is safe but it’s usefulness in footsies is limited because of its slow startup.
I’ll include what you said about using cr. MP xx LP Spark to beat dps and Ryu being unable to be safe-jumped. The rest is way too speculative or situational.
I didn’t mention it explicitly but slide is useful for crossing under, yes. J. HP can trade with Rose’s cr. HP if they time it late.
This is useful. Rest is given.
This is correct.
[/quote]
Are we really going to have to go into the argument of which ultra is better for this match up?
Because I won’t allow you to say that U2 is better in this matchup, much like I’ve never let Jason say it’s the better ultra in the match up >.>.
I’ll let you say they both have uses, but for you to assume that “they will most likely have two meters to fadc” or “they have no incentive to fireball” is false. Assuming makes an ass of you and me :D.
Remember; you can shut down their fireball game with reflect, but that doesn’t mean they won’t match your fireball and that’s HUGE; leads to setups with ultra 1 for full damage ultra 1 punish and crap. That means you’ll throw out sparks, gain meter, and then the best they can do is jump, focus, or block; all which leave them fairly vulnerable/gives you the extra damage. Just because Rose has U1 that would give Ryu “no incentive to fireball” or “it’s enough that it would shut down the blockstring because you have EX Spiral” is not enough. EX Spiral is BARELY threatening, but having that easy-to-react with Ultra 1 for 500 damage, they’ll think twice before throwing the fireball. What if you have no super meter and you have your ultra? Ultra 2 through the untrue blockstring. It can save you from a couple of situations and the fact that it does stop them from doing that is enough.
Especially the fact that you get your ultra while you’re losing. If you block block block block, there is no opening to activate soul satellite; but if you block, block, block, an untrue blockstring with U1 and you see it and you’re looking for it, it’s really easy to U1.
Ryu will actually have trouble building meter in this match up because he can’t throw fireballs liberally.
There are many situations where I’ve actually regret not picking Ultra 1 against Ryu. That’s why I’m so against not picking Ultra 2 because the most you can get is 60 chip damage and that’s if you’re lucky :/.
You’re giving up the probably sure damage of Ultra 2 (about 30 damage on average) for an ultra that does shut down options in situations that do regularly happen. You’re also giving up a lot of health for the fact that you aren’t instilling enough fear with EX spiral or you didn’t have the meter to save yourself for another chip death; but you had your U1.
---- **To each his own. **
I personally use both because I feel that U1 is a really boring ultra, but if I were playing a tournament match, I’d always use Illusion Spark against Ryu… ****