I updated the Bison match-up with the points that Trike has given. Before I put up any more match-ups, please provide me with feedback. Some questions to keep in mind:
I think the current format is severely lacking. Right now it reads more like a loose collection of tips than a coherent matchup guide or analysis. Instead of simply listing out what normals beat what in bullet point, they should be organized to reflect the dynamic of the matchup. Organize the guide according to ranges - close/mixup range, footsies range, fireball range, fullscreen range, etc. That should be the bulk of the guide. Besides having sections on general strategy and which Ultras to use, the guide should include a section on covering the general strengths and weaknesses and unique qualities of the opposing character.
As for the actual writing, I believe that’s best left to whoever is contributing the writeup. I for one am quite protective of what I produce and hate to see it altered in any way without my consent.
I think the format right now is fine. Deep written analysis like telling someone they NEED to approach the match this way. Generalizations help them get started and then they’ll figure out how to approach their match up filling their style.
Anyone who knows me knows that I’m a fairly rushdown Rose. SK is a turtle Rose. (an example).
He’ll approach the Rose match differently than I would (which is precisely why I haven’t written the writeup for Rose yet ;]). But generalizations help you get started and what to look out for.
In the match up, he’ll try to keep me out and such, while I’m just kicking the snot out of him once I get in. But that doesn’t mean that the cr. strong isn’t a good normal to use in the match up or ex spiraling in between blockstrings is a bad idea.
Having everyone read a guide and analysis and think that’s the only way and the best way to play against a character means that all the lower-leveled players will end up playing Rose in a one-dimensional view, ending up in the community knowing how to play against the style of Rose in their match up and every Rose playing the exact same way in every match up :/.
Same thing with you Heavy-Mental, the way you see the T. Hawk match up, I may not see the T. Hawk match up that way.
well I think its always good to have a general aspect of how to play the matchup. Like Anton said, some people like to play turtle, other rushdown, and others both (me in this category). For example, I tried doing what the guide said to do against Yun and Yang and it’s just not possible with the way I see how the match goes and my play-style. The guide says to use U1 against him and it does says good reasons to do so. But I’m more comfortable to use U2 against Yun and U1 against Yang.
Maybe a combination of both is always good to have. Like this you will be able to cover more grounds in more situation than if you only know how to approach the opponent only in a certain way.
Read my post again. It seems the only word you noticed in my post was “analysis” and you decided to jump on that. I’m not proposing the guide be the final authority (nor should it be) on how to approach the matchup. If somebody takes it that way, it’s their problem, not mine. You can keep your precious unique and individual playstyle. I couldn’t care less. My problem with the current format isn’t with the generalizations - it’s that they’re poorly organized. What I’m suggesting is, at the least, the guide be structured to list the tips showing the corresponding ranges.
Since you’re taking my post and interpreting in whatever way that suits you, let me provide some more concrete examples.
Despite our differing playstyles and view of the T. Hawk matchup, there’s no denying certain realities of the matchup. At certain ranges, T. Hawk can definitely Condor Dive over fireballs. Meaty j. LK instant overhead will definitely beat any of Hawk’s reversals except U2. I’m proposing we organize points like that according to a general framework that organizes these tips according to the corresponding ranges and dynamic. The first point would go under “far” or “fireball range”. Second would go under “close-range - mixup”. Something like “Rose’s EX Spiral escapes meaty crossup splash” might go under “close range - wakeup”.
I’m proposing the guide consist of those objective facts (which it already has) but organized in that way so its more easy to read. For example, a player that has no trouble keeping Hawk out but cracks when pressured could simply look at the “close range - wakeup” section instead of having to sift through a bunch of random tips that might have no relation whatsoever to the aspect of his game he wants to improve.
Whether or not matchup tips are general should go without saying. I think Heavy Mental is spot on.
I disagree. There are “+” for anything that’s beneficial for you and the “-” that are the things that you have to watch out in every matchup that was written by sk so far. IMO it should be the reader’s task to organize what he needs/wants to remember, they way he wants it. I would prefer going through ALL of the “+” then just focusing on what I need and also go through all the things I have to watch out at the same time. It forces the person to read and remind himself of some stuff that works against certain opponents and also possibly makes him learn new things that he didn’t know about. If they were all separate like: Wake-up options / mid-range possibilities / etc / etc and I only had problems when I’m mid-range against a particular character, I would certainly be that kind of guy that would look at the mid-range section and not think about looking through the rest.
For example: If a “ok Rose player” would meet an “ok Adon” and he had no problem escaping the Adon during his wake-up, this “ok Rose player” might one day fight against a more experienced Adon that will always OS the Rose on her wake-up. Now he could’ve looked into the “Wake-up options” before but he never had any problems with it until he faced the more experienced Adon.
It’s like school: if a teacher tells you exactly what to read for the next exam, most students won’t even bother reading the rest of the book. But if the teacher says: “read from chapter x to chapter y, there will be questions in the next exam between these chapters”, the students won’t have a choice to read all of it which will also help then into understanding more the story, now to figure out what they need to remember more importantly is the way they have to organize themselves.
EDIT: sometimes I think I say too much just to say small things -_-
That’s dumb. If we’re going to even bother writing up a guide, why do it halfway? The reason I proposed that format is because I believe players generally organize the breakdown of a matchup in that manner. Nothing about it says the reader can’t pull out what he wants from it. In fact, that format makes it far more convenient to refer to what he’ll need. Your proposal would amount to nothing more than an unorganized bullet point list that is a pain in the ass to sift through.
I highly disagree with the notion that your proposed format would force the person to read through everything. People are going to scan through the points and search for whatever they need to know. Only in some rare cases will a player be completely unsure of how to deal with a matchup. Most of the times they just need to understand certain aspects of it. Even if they do read through everything, they’ll most likely only remember what they need to know. Also, let’s not forget we’re talking about a guide, not a novel. No one should have to read through everything.
And that is perfectly naturally. That’s how players improve at the game and build on their abilities. Your opponents expose your weaknesses in certain areas and you go back and improve on those areas. No one reads a guide all of a sudden and becomes a master of all matchups. Overall player ability is built incrementally, skill by skill. You play an opponent, you find out what you’re lacking and you improve on that. You go out, play a different opponent, and maybe you’ll find you’re lacking in some other department. You go back and improve on that. Rinse, wash, repeat.
Stupid analogy. If you’re any bit reflective, after a match, you should know exactly what part of your game you need to improve on so, to labor your analogy, you won’t even need to read the entire book. You just need to go to that section where you’ll find the relevant information to improve your game. What you’re proposing amounts to ridding a book of all its chapters, throwing its contents together into an indistinguishable mass, then throwing it at the reader saying “Here, for the sake of your individualism and your knowledge you must read through that and organize everything yourself.” Why even put together a book in the first place?
Organization is fine, I’ll give you that.
I disagree with long writeups, though, as it will end up fairly subjective and most players are adamant about the way they play certain match ups, so that’s why I would keep generalizations alive.
If you’ve read my ryu matchup guide, you’ll actually see that I wrote it EXACTLY in the manner heavy mental was mentioning. I split it into specific ranges and listed out her options. I wrote what range Rose has an advantage standing in and what range ryu has the advantage standing in. The only hard part about that is it requires really REALLY extensive matchup knowledge and extensive explanations. Why should I stand here. What are my options if he does A. What are my options if he does B. What should I be doing when I get to said spot. Those type of in depth matchup guides can only help IMO.
And just because we wrote a how I play the matchup guide doesn’t mean the reader will do exactly like simon says. It just means he knows why you stand here and why you stand there and why you don’t stand there. Matchup experience will always be there the verify and refute anything the guide says.
Then we have an agreement.
I like the long writeups. You don’t HAVE to follow them word for word, no one’s making you, and not everyone is going to be able to adapt everything that’s written into their game. I’d much rather have a long writeup with what beats what and what you can do in each situation rather than “use u1 and play it full screen” Sometimes I’m just completely clueless and need a base to start on.
I played some games earlier today against Hatrify’s DeeJay and I realize I don’t know how to begin approaching this match-up!! It felt like I was waiting on him to make a move as he was waiting on me to do the same!!
Where do I start when it comes to fighting DeeJay? – I have videos that I will upload to the Rose Video thread later. Hopefully you guys can tell me where it all went so wrong!!
I have faced Hatrify’s Dee jay and its a pain in the ass 
Don’t be afraid to walk forward and block air slashers. Its far less risky than jumping since Deejay can AA you with slide, st. HK, jump back HP or jump forward HK. Learn to recognize those ranges. Work your way in patiently.
Be careful about trying to punish Deejay if does a “random” slide from far away. Remember he can charge down while doing that motion so if you react too slowly, you can eat upkicks.
Unless Deejay’s sitting on charge, his AA is very situational. st. HK for far-ranged AA, st. MP for slightly in front of him, st. HP for above and cr. HP for deep jump-ins. Go into training mode and test to see what jump-ins beat what AA. Learn to recognize those ranges where he will use them.
Rose has much better footsies than Deejay. Take advantage of that.
Be very careful about throwing fireballs if Deejay has back charge and meter. He can EX Sobat and U1 through fireballs on reaction.
Don’t be afraid to pressure Deejay on his wakeup. All of his upkicks whiff on crouchers.
Don’t be predictable with slide. Deejay can beat it out with his jumping knee drop if he reads it correctly. He also has a 5f sweep like Ryu (albeit with less range and recovery) so he can whiff punish your slide.
Deejay has a very floaty jump but he can stop the momentum with his knee drop. This gives him a very tricky jump in mixup. Don’t try to guess what direction he’s going to hit from. Pay attention and block accordingly.
the problem is that hatrify rushes you down with dee jay compare to other ones…
I personally like playing Hatrify’s Dee-Jay, his Dee-Jay is fun to play against. As for the guide template, just fix the points such that they are organized in terms of ranges (close, footsies, full-screen)?
@Heavy-Mental – Thanks for the information. Quick question, when you say “All of his up kicks whiff on crouchers” can Rose do low forward to cause up kicks to whiff?
Looks like I’m hitting training mode!!
Also take advantage of the fact that Deejay can’t OS your backdash on wakeup!
Sobat kicks can also all be punished with cr.mp xx EX spiral on block if you’re in range.
I don’t have a lot of other input on the matchup, but I do think it’s firmly in Rose’s favor. Hatrify’s Deejay is just really solid. He doesn’t do anything stupid or risky and knows how to block, so it’s hard to get damage, even if you can block all of his mixups.
That, and include a brief section talking about the opposing character’s strengths, weaknesses and any unique characteristics.
No problem. When I say “All of his upkicks whiff on crouchers” I mean that as long as you’re crouching, you’re not going to get hit by them.