SSF4 AE Rose Match-up Thread

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
501

I recognize and agree with your points. In retrospect, I’d say the matchup is even at worst. I wouldn’t call it a losing matchup but it certainly is one with little room for error on Rose’s part; she needs to be on point and maintain excellent spacing nearly all the game. If you want to see the matchup numbers changed in Rose’s favor, sure, you’re welcome to it. I don’t care since I don’t place much stock in matchup numbers, reason being I don’t feel numbers can actually capture the dynamic of the matchup. Rose-Hawk might be 6-4 at footsies range but when Hawk gets in on Rose it might as well be 3-7. Its hard to quantify that and I feel it’d be far more valuable for the focus of the guide to be on explaining in depth what each character’s options, strategies, etc. are in the matchups.

That aside, in the future if you’re going to make a controversial claim like “Rose beats Hawk. I disagree with the matchup 4.5-5.5. 6-4 Rose.” you might as well wait until you can write a full argument supporting it before throwing it out there. Prevents a lot of people (such as myself) from getting the wrong idea. SRK got plenty of keyboard warriors thinking they know the ins and outs of the game better than anyone else. I should’ve known better since I’ve been around the Rose section for a while to know you’re fairly knowledeable but to prevent future misunderstandings with others, please don’t throw shit out there without backing it up.

502

Here’s more tips for the Bison matchup that aren’t in the writeup:

[LIST]
[]Meaty cr.lk on his wakeup will make his EX Psycho Crusher whiff, making him waste meter. ALWAYS meaty cr.lk on his wakeup if he has meter. Or safe jump. Learn your safejumps.
[]NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EX Soul Spiral to try and reversal a Bison. Ever. His moves are usually either too fast or have too many active frames. It’s not worth it. Just block.
[]Never, ever OS a Bison unless he has no meter, then OS EX Soul Spark. OSing a Bison with meter doesn’t work because none of Rose’s moves will beat all of Bison’s wakeup options.
[]If you’re ever under scissors pressure in the corner, jump back and j.hp. If you catch a predictable scissor kick, you get a free combo.
[]Learn the spacing for Bison’s s.hk and s.mk. Rose’s s.hk will beat both of them, and Bisons love to throw them out after a well-spaced scissor kick.
[]Don’t try and out-poke Bison during scissors pressure unless you know you can get in a s.hk. Just block. It’s not that much chip damage and you’ll get out eventually.
[]Rose’s s.hk also goes over Bison’s cr.lk, so I like to go for it after a cr.lk, cr.lp, cr.lk blockstring on his wakeup if I think he’s teching sloppily.
[]Slide under his head stomp attempts.
[]Throw fireballs from full screen unless he’s in the middle of a head stomp.
[]Try and gauge how much the opponent uses EX psycho crusher during your block strings and bait it accordingly. Especially during the cr.mp -> spiral.
[/LIST]
That’s about it. I used to hate this matchup so, so much and played my local Bisons to no end until I got a firm grasp of the matchup. It’s so, so much easier once you understand what you can do against his shenanigans.

503

I don’t think we absolutely need to put numbers to a matchup yet. It’s useful enough to point out what Rose’s options are, what gameplan she should approach the matchup with, ways to counter certain specials, useful normals, etc.

That being said. I think we need to decide on a better format for these guides. I like my format perfectly fine but I think the one on the main page is lacking. It needs to go beyond simply describing what normal beats what and etc. Even some of that information is flawed.

504

By all means do, I’m completely free against Seth players.

505

Actually if you see your opponent do wake up EX psycho crusher most of the time you can OS EX ST from a safe jump against it. Of course the bad part of it is that if he does teleport you are in a bad position. If you see he cant take the pressure anymore and you think he’s about to do a EX PC It’s a pretty good idea

jump back j.HP beats Bison’s st.HK in the corner ??? most Bison’s do that when they pressure

506

After thinking about it, I’ll write up the Seth post when I’m finished with my last class tonight. Instead of having some bit wall of text filled with clutter, I’m just going to compress it to key points. I think we all know what Rose’s tools are and how to use them effectively.

Nope, just guess.

507

Exactly. You have to guess. If he does EX Psycho Crusher or EX headstomp, you’ll catch him, but if he teleports, you’re in deep shit. I don’t think it’s worth it.

Jump back HP catches scissors kick, not st.HK. I don’t think it beats st.HK. I meant do it when you think another scissor kick is coming.

508

So in other words…guessing :/…
bleh I hate when a character doesnt have a lot of tools and must guess, guess, guess all the time…

509

Ehh, I usually do it when he’s too far to go for a s.hk. It’s hard to explain. I have a super flowchart-y defense when I’m in the corner against a Bison. I rarely ever get hit by a s.hk. I almost enjoy being in the corner against a Bison.

510

maybe if you get a replay once you could put it here it could help :stuck_out_tongue:

511

IMO, match ups on the front page should stay GENERALIZED and should have match up numbers.

It would generally show how to play the matchup and how the match up would go. Being in-depth is fairly subjective. Generalizing leaves room for playing your own Rose.

512

I’d have to watch some of my replays again to remember anything else. This is all I can think of at the moment. Any questions feel free to ask.

[details=Spoiler]Seth Matchup (6-4 Seth)

Approaching Seth:

I like to use game 1 to just gather information on how Seth plays. Check to see if they know how to punish your slides and cr.mp to drills with SRK, or EX lightning legs. What do they like to burn their meter for and how often will they have 2 bars? Can he antiair. Do they option select their jump ins? Will Seth random DP without 2 bars, or only with 2 bars? Make sure to memorize how they like to setup their counter DPs and tick SPDs.

Dive Kick and SRK:
[LIST]
[]Delayed dive kick will stuff cr.HP. If you ever see a delayed dive kick just U1 or EX Soul Throw it.
[]If Seth’s foot from the dive kick is right above your head, DO NOT U1. You will get bopped in the head, and U1 will be stuffed.
[]Can’t slide under dive kick, you will get tagged from behind or in front by his foot. If Seth option selects an SPD, and you managed to slide under his dive kick (somehow), you will get thrown.
[]Most Seths will only throw out their frame trap and empty jump DPs when they have 2 bars.
[*]If Seth has his anti air and autocorrect DPs now, he is impossible to jump in against, even when you knock him down.
[/LIST]

Waking Up:
[LIST]
[]Seth’s OS tandem, U1, and SRK from meaty j.HK will beat: backdashes and EX Spiral. However this only applies if the Seths you play against actually option select. If they don’t do it, abuse your backdashes.
[]Block, block, block, block.
[*]Seth has very ambiguous oki. Pay attention to when he’s crossing you up or dive kicking your face.
[/LIST]

What can I do :(?
[LIST]
[]The spot you want to stay on screen is right outside of his far standing fierce range. If he likes to poke with it, sweep that shit. At this part of the screen, managing your zoning game is very easy. Seth cannot get into a fireball war with you, so he will eventually jump in.
[]Be wary of throwing out sparks. Seth can punish it full screen with his wall jump.
[]cr.HP is your anti air of choice, neutral jump HP and MP are both very good also.
[]If you are getting resetted in the corner from headstomps, pick one side and block high. Most Seths like to DP, SPD, or headstomp overhead during that reset. If you just block, you’ll cover 2 of Seth’s options. Anything else does not work because Seth can switch sides last minute during that reset and mess up your inputs.
[]Rose has a fuzzy guard move on tall characters. Ambiguous j.MK/j.HP into j.LK overhead. If you do the overhead on Seth’s wakeup, his U2 will beat it clean.
[]U2 is useless don’t ever use it.
[*]Shoot LP sparks from far away then dash up. If Seth jumps at all, you can punish with U1 or Soul Throw.[/details]
[/LIST]

513

I don’t have good internet atm, and probably won’t for a while, so I can’t offer that, but if I ever play a Bison at a tournament and it’s on stream, I’ll link the archive here. I’m really bad at describing/remembering stuff like that, but I can do it if I’m actually playing.

514

I went up against Jago back in Super when he came down to my state. Unlike most Bisons I’ve played against before and now, Andre made you feel like you couldn’t do anything in that matchup. He pinned me in the corner and barely used scissor kick lol.

515

I need some tips VS Sim. I can do fine from far away, but that’s not where I want to be. Every time I get close I get pushed out by a barrage or LKs. I haven’t had any luck with EX spiral, since the LKs stuff it. Does Rose not have any way to deal with those quick kicks? Or am I just missing where the opening is.

516

You block it. block, block, block, block, block, block, block, block. THEN you EX spiral.

After playing against one of the best sims out there, IMO this match up is 6-4 at best in Dhalsim’s favor.
Choose U1 for this matchup. He will no longer be able to throw any fireball once you get it. But watch out if he has 2 EX bars because he can FADC. You don’t need to be in his face to win this match up. What’s important is to be aware of his next move.

Reflecting Yoga fire

  • At the beginning of the match, its important to have the meter lead against him so when he throws a fireball, trying absorbing the fireball at the last second. If he tries to hit you at the same time with an attack, not only will you absorb the fireball but you will also hit him causing a knockdown -> immediately throw a spark and walk toward him.

  • Now that’s, IMO the center of the fight: after getting the lead in meter (1 ex bar or near it is enough) if he spams fireballs, just reflect them back at him or throw you own fireball if you are not in range of his normals. You have no reason to dash/jump at him when he throws a fireball: you will only hurt yourself. You can either block or reflect him back the fireball. If you reflect the fireball with MP there are chances where both of you will trade damage (in his favor) or you will hit him. If you succeed, again: throw fireball + walk toward him. If you see him jump to avoid your reflected fireball and it takes time for him to teleport: immediately dash torward him and soul throw him (I prefer EX to avoid of being stuff by his normals). If he ends up teleporting back in retreat dash forward but watch what he does because he could either j.HP you etc.

  • Don’t be afraid to you EX reflect in this match to reflect his EX fireballs. You get meter faster than him and that forces him to:
    1- not throw any attacks (meaning you can advance toward him)
    2- block (meaning you can advance toward him)
    3- jump (meaning you can soul throw him)

Dealing with Dhalsim’s normals

  • Another thing to take note is when he attacks you with a barrage or normals: block. simply block. Don’t try to backdash (unless you focus backdash), don’t try to EX spiral UNLESS you are midscreen of him. Sim users aren’t concern about doing damage to you with their normals: they just want to push you back. So when they begin to be confident of pushing you away enough, now is you chance of using EX spiral immediately after you blocked a normal. Remember to be at least midscreen otherwise you will get stuffed. If he abuses of st.HP, Rose’s st.mk makes it either whiff or it can hit him. But you must hit him with the tip of st.mk or you will get hit.

  • Some dhalsim, instead of staying in their corner, like to go TOWARD you and use their normals to stuff yours. I recommend blocking and to watch out when he comes near you and he slides. Most of the time they will try to grab you if you are in their range.

  • Sometimes when you throw a fireball they will jump and hit you with j.HP. Don’t forget his instant overhead when he jumps back.

Why the matchup is slightly in Dhalsim’s favor:

  • The problem with the matchup is that you are always the one that must be on your toes: If you reflect his fireball, there are big chances that at the same time he decided to teleport. If he succeeds he can easily cause and knockdown on you a do some mixups, which is bad for you.

  • Trying to catch his normals while you are doing a soul reflect is very hard to do. There are sometimes when you will get hit multiple times and so losing a huge chuck of your life, which is not what you want.

  • U1 dhalsims are easier to deal with than U2 dhalsims IMO. U2 dhalsims won’t be afraid to close the gap between him and you. The situation will be reversed: HE will try to bring you at a range where you:

  • can’t throw fireballs -> You get hit by U2

  • can’t reflect his fireballs -> if you LP or MP reflect you will get hit by U2. If you do HP reflect you can get hit by his normals

  • can’t do soul spirals -> If dhalsim has U2, he doesn’t need to use his normals against you anymore. He can spam you fireballs since you can’t reflect them. Therefore trying to bypass his normals with your ex spirals are nullified by his fireballs.

  • he will try to bait you to do one of those. So you will have to play in retreat which is better for him.

  • That’s also a reason why getting meter is important in this match: after being only defensive against him you can try a soul reflect FADC backdash. This will be the moment for you to break through and get some space back.

The point of the game is to slowly bring him to the corner and at the max range of your U1 and to have the life advantage.
More tips:

  • If you see him focus on of you fireballs and you are in range to do dash -> U1. Do it. his backdash is slow.
  • Soul throw auto-corrects when he tries to teleport behind you. So does U1.
  • When you begin the 2nd round sometimes just do EX spiral. High chances he will try to make you focus backdash but you will score a knockdown instead.

Hope it helps.

517

Thanks for the advice. I didn’t know lp reflect could reflect and hit at the same time. That’s a lot of advice to take into account, I’ll have to work on that match up.

Also, out of curiosity, which Sim player are you talking about?

518

Thank you for the input, I’ll take note on that.

I’ll update the Bison match-up later with these points, thank you as well for the input.

519

I’ve played someone called Snafoo

520

Is it possible to go over the Cody and Seth match ups? I’d like to know the options against Seth mainly.