I agree that Yang is harder as well. Yang can keep the pressure that Viper’s cant deal with.
On a slightly embarrassing note. The above guide to Vega does nothing for me. I’ve read Vega is one of Viper’s easiest match ups but they just troll me like I was yesterday’s news. Any tips?
Agree with all the above, yes Yang is much harder for Viper than Yun. Also speaking of the Yang match up, was playing with a friend online for a bit the past few nights, and i noticed the old school frame trap cr. strong xx strong tk doesn’t work on him. Has any one been able to utilize this yet in the match up? I keep getting counter hit, by cr. short which then leads to rekka combo. I know it’s online but I got beat out every time i tried to start it up. I know the frame trap is weak against characters with 3 frame normals, but christ i can do it to bisons if their timing isn’t on point.
Basically I am wondering was my friends timing just perfect, or is the frame trap just useless in this match up?
I didn’t know people thought of that as a frame trap
That’s kind of what I always thought of it as, well if you land a strong tk that is. I guess you could consider it a mix-up? Not really sure what else to classify it as, I tend to refer to it as a frame trap because if I continue with cr. strong after a landed strong tk I am more than likely in my experience counter hitting whatever my opponent throws out there.
Don’t really want to aruge over language though, but what would you consider it?
But my real question like i originally stated has anyone been able to utilize this in the match up?
Well if a yang is mashing crouch short then you should be doing a lot more to f him up than just mashing strong tk repeatedly
That’s the thing though he wasn’t mashing it, nor was I mashing strong tk…I was getting beat out of cr. strong not strong tk. My concern is, after a landed strong tk is yang’s cr. short always going to beat me, if if follow with cr. strong to try and catch him pressing buttons or just to keep pressure. This is why I wanted to know if anyone else had experienced the same situation. Knowing my options, and more so the options I don’t have after a specific attack in a match-up helps me to make a more informed decision of how I should play the match-up.
For now I suppose I’ll just scratch that option off my list.
Yeah ppl with fast normal’s will beat out ur cr.mp after tk but for them I do a cr.lp after the tk cause on counter hit it combos and serves the same purpose.
If raw numbers will help think about this: Strong tk is +3 on hit in AE. Crouch strong is 5 frames. If you are absolutely perfect on your timing you are at a -2 advantage. Yang’s cr lk is 3 frames. So mash harder
words.
s.MK seems to beat yun’s divekick clean from mid range, c.MP and c.HP seem to beat it from close range.
Am I right ? Or just the Yun I played all night was scrub ?
lol fucking safe dive kicks
Edit: and whats with bison being able to do countless fucking scissor kicks that are almost non-punishable?
Viper has very few easy matchups, and even fewer that allow many mistakes. With that being said, you need to be incredibly dynamic to your opponent. The best advice I can give any aspiring Viper player is 1. Anti-air everything you possibly can. 2. KNOW your optimal ranges for every matchup, they vary by matchup, learn them. 3. Stay on the ground unless you have a really good reason not to be, aside from neutral jumps which are pretty safe and a great way to create a vertical wall, viper can’t really start mixing up shit all until your opponent is scared of you. I think you should always feint way more than you throw shit out, even safe shit like lp/mp tks, when feinting be prepared to antiair. If your op isn’t falling for that and staying grounded you’ve already got him afraid of something. For someone who is dead set on downback, crossup burnkick will make short work of them, for someone who is neutral jumping, wait for them to land before crossing them up, OR pressure them with cr. mk xx mptk. For someone who is pacing with footsies, stay at optimal range and look for your openings.
Eventually you will get a knockdown, this is where viper shines, it’s up to you to capitalize on it.
Some notes:
Rog:
Optimal range is just outside HIS sweep range which is likely just inside or at the tip of your sweep range.
Using neutral jumps coupled with neutral jump burn kicks will make him weary of using straight rush to punish
Beware his neutral jump HK/HP when trying to pressure, and beware jump back normals when rushing him down.
In neutral game, make good use of crossup bks and early lp tks to beat rush punches, feints are your friend here, use them often, be very sparing with seismos.
After knockdown:
Take advantage of his shitty wakeup options, continue to do safe crossups to not only take away his reversals but his charge as well.
Last note: If you have two bars, be prepared to use hptk FADC dash up just to stop momentum, or even to keep momentum going on his wakeup if they like to jab.
**Blanka: **See Subzeros post
Gouken: You kind of just need to play solid, and on your first knockdown it’s always a good bet to do something that isn’t punishable by the counter, bait that shit out or let him know you know he has it, that way you’ll be able to mix him up. As stated earlier, Nj HK is your best friend, if he tries to use rush palm nj bk ftw. He doesn’t have an answer for crossups either so just play solid and antiair any demon flips.
Yun: I’m pretty free against Yuns, it’s similar to playing Rufus though. If you get momentum make sure you make attempt a safe crossup or a lk bk right over his head to teach him dps aren’t free. f.mp is solid and will reset if they divekick you, crossup burnkicks pretty much own him and he’s got low stun so you just gotta play incredibly solid and do what you can, there’s no secret to yun, make sure you try and throw and dive kicks that land at your neck or above. Nj hk and nj bk when applicable
**Yang: **Not too different from playing Yun with elements of Fei. Be weary that everything is a fuckin frame trap. Bait WAY more than you bait Yun because he can Fadc his DP, and because his DP can hit you like full screen so seismos aren’t even close to free, but he falls victim to smart crossup bks just like Yun, low health and stun. nj hk and nj bk when applicable
For both the twins, if you can, get them the fuck off you with 2 bars and fadc, neutral game is your best friend. tech throws. Antiairs aren’t as reliable because of their weird normals when jumping in.
Bison: His pressure is way easier to block against than people with divekicks, just block until he’s out of range to land another scissor, look out for dash up throws that asshole bisons like to do and get yourself back to neutral as soon as possible. Optimal range is midrange to full screen.
General: When your opponent is scared or even if he isn’t, do not be afraid to f. mp in footsies, it’s a sort of free mixup afterwards if you have bar of either throw or ex seismo. Also, do not die with full meter, I land a fair amount of supers, but you’ll have better luck cancelling normals into exseismo for free pressure. If i’m about to close off the first round in a match i’ll almost always try and go for a cr.hp xx ex seismo into mixup / block whatever just because I can and because it’s safe.
Edit: TAKE ADVANTAGE OF YOUR LIFE LEAD. Turtling is a viable tactic, if anyone says otherwise tell them to eat shit and die because you have generic capcom bitch health, lower than Makotos and your reversals are garbage so why put yourself into a position where you can get exposed easily? Don’t, salt up their life by turtling when you need to, do not take unnecessary risks, i’m sure we’ve all lossed online games we should have won due to our own stupidity in not knowing that 8000BP scrub would wakeup ultra. TURTLE
NOW…
I need info/advice/frame data/tactics for these two fuckers, the bane of my existence:
Guy and Deejay. With Guy I feel like his rushdown is kind of anti viper tactics, on knockdown it’s fine, but knocking him down at all is really tough. With Deejay I feel like all his shit is safe, what isn’t safe? How can I make this matchup easier? Even neutral jumps get beaten by his random sobats it’s fucking garbage. Please help me lower my sodium.
Thank you
Against Guy, this post sums up the match-up pretty well: SSF4 AE C.Viper Match-up Thread
Against DeeJay’s Sobat, unless done from point blank, I don’t think there’s anything Viper can use to punish it apart from cr.lk lol. But from max range, couldn’t punish it. Tried Super, tried everything, couldn’t do it. If you can, it’s pretty hard. If you block it at point blank range, you can punish with st.lk>cr.mpxxM Thunder Knuckle though.
Yeah I hate deejays just for that simple fact that’s why if the DJ is Sobat happy I stay about mid screen and zone him until he forgets about the move and then just play as if I’m fighting guile.
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Yeah, that’s a good idea actually. Just stay out of Sobat range. I wonder if whiff punishing careless Sobats is a good idea as well, but everytime I tried it, I screwed up. Just need to be faster, that’s all. There may be other solutions, I’ll test them out.
To the Yun discussion above, yeah, unfortunately Yun’s got like 1000 stun. But it’s Viper, so it’s cool anyway, he’ll get stunned if he eats a few combos like everyone else. Emphasis on the if haha
Haven’t really had issues with the twins yet, as i easily beat the purveyors here. I can’t wait to play some skilled ones though. I definitely don’t feel helpless in those matches now. I’m about 90% on divekick reads and counters, and i have better footsies with viper than they do with anyone.
My philosophy with hard or unfamiliar matchups is quite literally “less is more”. I tend to keep them at half to full screen, and throw temper tantrums in the form of seismos for that full screen rushdown. Pepper in more feints than usual, and just punish hard when they bite. Just be as unpredictable as you can with seismos, and that will open up an insane amount of whiff punishing for you. Most bad matchups, people lose because they kill themselves and run into dumb shit trying to press their offense. Learn defense, and you won’t feel like you need to be offensive to win the matchup.
With Guy, do less, cr.lk when he’s close. Downback and seismo pressure deal with this matchup just fine. When you are downbacking by default, all he’s got is throw and running overhead, which is seeable. If you get hit by his floaty ass jump, wake up and shake off the scrub.
Deejay really loses this match, imo. Half-full screen and he’s got no options. Cr.lk is safe on all of his wakeups, unless you keep mashing it and he does ex machinegun upper. His walk-speed and 4frame cr.mk can be a problem until you get familiar with his movement, but downback owns both of those. He can’t chuck aerial slashes, because you can seismo on reaction, he can’t jump, because you should be anti-airing. He can’t change his angle/timing like divekickers can, outside of d.lk, and it’s very minimal. H.tk will trade at worst with it, leading to insta-lowtrajbk, or dash H.tk/Ultra. This is one of the few matches where i feel trades are in your favor. And yes, sobats are safe if deejay ranges them white.
Vega, i really only know in theory, and generally i get wrecked by walldive spam, so no advice from me on that one. Have literally found no good options to deal with walldive spam other than guess right with knuckle, nj.hk/hp, or focus-dash.
LMFAO, don’t mind my lack of Yun stun knowledge. Good Guy advice, so on defense we’re playing it kind of Sim like, gotcha. I think Deejay I get too impatient, it’s like a more annoying guile. Vega is kind of hit or miss for me, can’t say i know how to break down that match, but he’s not a difficult matchup imo. Thanks everyone
Anyone got tips on the Juri matchup? I can’t seem to get her off me once she starts her pressure, plus it seems like she can jump in for free from certain ranges.
The Juri matchup is weird, you have to play very footsie/bait-y, if you try to zone with seismos when she isnt throwing or storing fireballs, she’ll just jump and dive kick. When you get up close bait out pinwheels and teleports. She actually has very good AA abilities so jumping at her is very difficult as well. The worst possible situation to be in against her is in the corner. Shes got good pressure there with her cr.mk to fireball.
I know a lot of Juri’s that use Feng Shuei Engine like to go for overheads at somepoint when its activated, if you can catch it, just ultra on reaction.
Thats about all I can think of, like I said its a very weird matchup to play.
Asked uryo about his opinion on the twin match-up and he says Yang is impossible to win, speaking on top player to top player basis and Yun is very hard and if you can’t react to his lunge punch then the match becomes even harder and he just gave up on those two. I asked momochi about Yun and he said you have to lp tk lunge punch and you have to random out Yun and if you can punish, punish hard.
I also asked Uryo what his mentality is when playing Viper, he said “as Viper always move forward, never think you’re going to lose.”