If only Pokegen somehow came out before Pokebank. It would be so glorious, a thing of sheer beauty I might add.
Just make stealth rock a temp hazard. Rocks dissappear after 5 turns.
making rocks only last 5 turns would destroy the whole purpose of using rocks, making it worthless
a much better balance would be making it hit for 25% max and do 1/4 of it’s damage min, although…pinsir, talonflame, and volcarona might become a little ridiculous so probably not a good idea
and making SR hit only flying pokes would again, make it useless and cause more imbalance
What? No. Going by that logic Reflect and Light Screen are useless because they only last 5 turns, never mind the fact that it lets things tank hits they normally wouldn’t and sweep after setting up. Hell, Maybe, Reflect and Light Screen should last indefnitely until a pokemon uses Brick Break or Defog just like stealth rocks lasts until a pokemon uses Rapid Spin or Defog. I mean, Defog has the distribution for this to be viable.
Also, how the hell would that it only hitting flying pokes make it useless? It still hits what it should hit hard, which is flying types. And the fire types it doesn’t hit are walled by Heatran anyway (which you are forced to run because of Scizor/Genesect/Volcarona). And if you know they are going to switch into the Pinsir they are going to set up 99.9% of the time use that to get your Whirwlind/Roar user in there. In any case, you’d still get it up if you see someone using Charizard or TalonFlame or any flying type for that matter. It would have a niche, just like Reflect and Light Screen has a niche. Bottomline is it shouldn’t have become a staple on every team in the first place. You NEED (as in something thats mandatory, I don’t see how that’s not overcentralizing) a spinner or defog user, otherwise you get raped by the rocks.
But it creates balance for the metagame. Yeah. Okay.
Do any of you other guys see anything wrong with what I’m saying? Because I’m failing to see how I’m wrong…
If I’m wrong, please tell me, so I can stop wasting my time arguing. Like I said previously, this isn’t about the Evasion clause anymore–use it, don’t use it, IDGAF, but the logic that is used to defend it.
It’s faulty logic… and my personality and ethical code won’t allow me to just leave incorrect information out there in the air where it can continue feed the cycle of shitty logic pumping out of that other place.
I WANT to stop bringing this up, so I can talk about something else, but until someone I respect can break it down logically for me, I’m not able to let this go.
Help me end this shit… Somebody step up and give an opinion, don’t just sit on the sidelines while I drive myself crazy fighting the German Smoke Monster…
*
#SavePo’sSanity *
I don’t have a problem with rocks it could just be the teams I choose to play though. I think if we didn’t have rocks everyone would run Tflame and or volcarona. I think rocks does a mediocre job of putting some potentially crazy pokemon in check and bringing them to the level of the OU competition. That being said some pokemon will obviously be unfairly effected by rocks as well like crobat.
dragonite, volcarona, and heatran all had 35% usage on the SRless ladder on showdown last gen, and heatran is barely affected by SR, moltres moved up to OU (to around 20th in usage), everything else that was highly used was used to beat those three pokemon, this is not balanced
SR is not a staple on every team anymore, and you can make a team without a spinner or a defogger, hell, the stall team i was running didn’t use either of these with only sableye as the only option to stop rocks from setting, i’ve run successful teams without these, you can do it, get creative
stop being delusional, it’s not that hard to play around, only when the opponent sets up all hazards does it get obnoxious, hell, some of the most successful teams out that have talonflame on it without using a spinner, the options are out there, stop being so closed minded about it
evasion/OHKO/moody force you to run things that otherwise, would be a hinder to your team, for example, tentacruel can use haze to stop mega lucario, but why when it’s never 2HKO’d by a +2 CC and can ruin it’s life with scald
OMG… Please someone else post… I want to respond soooo bad… Help me… Stop me from ramming my head into a wall…
AAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!***
Wasn’t the entire point of the entire fucking stealth rock debacle not to say “stealth rock should be banned” but rather to say “This isn’t banworthy so these tame things shouldn’t be either”.
But what do I know about fucking reading comprehension.
It’s officially never going to end. Even if they had a match they’d never agree on the rules, and even if that happened they’d continue arguing.
The thread is beyond repair.
No it would make the hazard more strategic to use and differentiate itself from spikes. It would add more skill to the item since for those 5 turns switching can cost you a sash or sturdy working. It makes your opponent think twice about switching in a pkmn while allowing you to pull mind games with when to switch to another pkmn. Basically no matter what you or I say stealth rock will make or break strategies whether they change its mechanics or not. I still say what I propose allows it to perform its role while still displaying some level of skill. Makes spinners not always needed which opens up more team building moveset strategies.
This guy did not just say that.
He did not just say that.
I feel like Po right now.
he’s saying that stealth rock is more centralizing than evasion/OHKO/moody which is false
he’s also saying SR creates a more imbalanced metagame than evasion/OHKO/moody, which is also false
he’s saying that there are more options to get around these things, which could be true but how many of them are actually useful? when compared to SR, the options are incredibly useful outside of doing their main job, rapid spin removes leech seed, defog rids of opposing screens, magic bounce stops all non attacks coming your way, and taunt shuts down support pokemon in general, you also have pokemon like excadrill, lucario, alakazam who give no shits about SR
you can bring up keen eye, but every single pokemon except for 2 or 3 of them have no use in competitive battling, and those that do learn it
skarmory really needs sturdy
meowstic is worthless without prankster
drapion is much scarier with sniper
so you want to limit their effectiveness just because you want one stupid mechanic in the game that causes such a huge imbalance that causes many people to rip their hair out?
yup, totally cool
I seriously don’t even know what we’re arguing about anymore… I thought I was doing a logical breakdown of the break down of logic*(lol)* your typical Smog Monster has, and then it turned into “How Stealth Rocks Saved The Metagame…”
Look, I like Pokémon. I like(most of) the people in this thread. I enjoy having debates on potential movesets and strategies… but if my continued presence is a detriment to that, then I will gladly go back to what I was doing in Gen V and just do breeding in my spare time and stay away from battles.
I want everyone to enjoy their time here and be able to debate in(relative) peace. I will have my battle with Mood on Saturday, and win or lose, I will leave this thread so it can go back to what it was supposed to be in the first place.
I thought X and Y would be a fresh start, a new era in battles, and here we are, barely 2+ months into it, and its already sliding right down the same shithole that has plagued the community for over three generations now… I fight so hard because I see what the game could be and how much fun it is without all the arbitrary house rules holding everyone’s creativity back.
Oh fucking well… This will be one of my last rants on the subject. I have one last bit of business to attend to, then you’ll never have to deal with me or my opinions again.
By 5 turns do you mean 5 switches or battle turns? I think 5 switches would be sound and make it a good move without making it retarded.
The Rocks whittle down upon each entry.
Lol @ Stealth Rock being necessary to reign in Pokémon who weren’t even in existence yet (MegaCharizard-Y, Talonflame) as if it was always a perceived threat. I find that hilarious.
The metagame wouldn’t have crumbled into dust if SR didn’t exist and it’s a weak argument to assert that a lack of usage of SR-weak Pokémon in a SR-banned simulation equates lack of viability. It only shows how subconsciously polarizing the mentality of SR-users are that they don’t even consider the viability of many other Pokémon because they play towards convention.
Stealth Rock is used because it’s very very retarded good crutch and it’s braindead easy to use. However, I don’t think threats like Volcarona, Talonfame and Y-zard would burn the metagame to cinders just because a move that never should’ve existed, is still in play.
This reminds me of when 12 year old. can’t comprehend how anyone navigated without smartphones/GPS. It’s called a roadmap bitches!
Po, I was okay with having a debate with you until you hit me with a dismissive, passive aggressive reply that was largely an edit of not one, but two posts instead of giving me a real reply. The paragraph or two after that was written off by me because you didn’t even bother responding to me in a more mature way. If it wasn’t intentional for the reply to be a smart ass or passive aggressive, fine, but that doesn’t really excuse the reply at all. The problem is that you are getting way too emotionally invested in your posts (see: your last few) and only ends up hurting your side of the debate, even if you may be completely right. I’m okay if people really want to debate topics like Stealth Rock vs other banned material and what not, but the rather sour emotions in some of these posts ruin the debate entirely.
volcarona and dragonite would wreck havoc with, their biggest enemy, SR, being gone, they have now way more switch-ins and can fuck shit up on turn 1, run volcarona and see how freaking good this thing in, it’s straight up stupid with SR not on the field and with him and dragonite, and now talonflame, they’re probably the main reason to run SR
With this I will make my last point in this thread. I try to come in and set up reasonable things and respectful points. It is fine if you want to make a counter point there are lots of good arguments in this point. It is littered with LOL and wow what a stupid 12 year old and scrub. I mean THIS is why no one else is arguing here. A lot of you can not handle a mature debate without resulting to personal attacks it seems.
I said what I said referring to my experiences against Volcarona and Talonflame THIS GEN. If i don’t have rocks up agaisnt Tflame it usually switches in forces my setup sweeper out (pinsir in this case) then if i still have my tflame counter it takes 33% recoil of almost nothing and then leaves so it leaves still has priority roost and can counter my sweeper whenever. I am not saying either of them would be ubers just used a hell of a lot more (already used a lot). I am sure I am missing something since there are over 700 pokemon but that is what I can tell from what I have seen so far.
I can handle anything the game throws at me and have since gen 1. That said my issue is stealth rock takes 1 turn and always guarantees damage no matter how small it is and remains til the end of the battle. Only way out of it is to force your team to run something that takes it out or is immune.
On the flip side, Stealth rock shouldn’t HAVE to be run in order to prevent specific pokemon from defeating you.
At least with double team running it doesn’t guarantee anything but delaying being attacked.
Spikes and Toxic Spikes guarantee damage until end of round too, if not do more damage than Stealth Rock, although they do not hit vs non-grounded opponents. Do you think that is fine too, or is it balanced by the fact that they do not do damage vs non-grounded opponents?
In any case, like r00ster22 said, the debate becomes extremely sour when people start getting heated and/or start calling people names. There isn’t a place for that here (or any debate for that matter). I think we can all agree on that. Hell, I would expect this kind of debauchery in an SRK debate thread about sexism, religion, racism, or politics… but not here.