well it proves my point that the BRZ would win in tighter tracks…and non of those BRZ where stock cars. Stock to stock the S2000 is a better car. It’s faster, double wishbone suspension, and better tires. But what could be a better non stock to non stock, it comes down to track selection. It has 13 years on suspension technology over the s2000, comes with superior brake pad technology, and is lighter by 100 pounds it will win on tight short autocross tracks.
Those cars btw are running minimum 215 on the BRZ/FRS, and I know they aren’t lionheart tires too, which is a huge jump over the stock 185 low resistance tires that come with the bRZ/FRS.
My money is on the Honda stock to stock though for most applications bar the really tight autocross tracks
where the FRS/BRZ will win becuase of better suspension geometries and weight distribution in tight technical tracks even if it’s stock. WHat I want to know if it’s the same drivers, and are they runing tires. IIRC, autocross rules allow you to run wider and more aggressive tires if they still fit in the factory rim.
The S2Gay is a lot like the NSX, it seems awesome on paper then when you drive it never lives up to the name. I’d take a fresh FRS over a S2K free. S2K is a glorified miata.
I also like that the FRS is essentially made to upgrade. S2K not so much.
I like both cars, I’d “rice” up the hell out of the frs with fender flares, diffusers, advan wheels and sticky yokohama rubbers, hks cat back titanium exhaust, coil overs, brembo brakes, etc. But the s2000 I’d keep it OEM with maybe some subtle improvements. I dig both cars, and I’d track both!
Ferrari 458 is outclassed by the holy trinity. Vette, viper, and Porsche, the apex of track oriented performance street cars.
Ferrari is less reliable than all three, it isn’t as capable in a track setting, and costs a lot more than either three.
Understand, HyperCars aren’t about performance that you associate as performance. Hypercars are ultra expensive, ultra high luxury, ultra exclusive straight line monsters first and foremost. And the ones that do perform well, are track built non dot legal cars, like Ferrari fxx or Lamborghini sesto elemento but hide behind 1+million dollar process tags. Where you can go to dodge and buy a legit gt2 spec viper, go to pratt and whitney to order a gt2 variant corvette for half the price, and both cars are the dominant gt class champions for the past 15+ years, I gliding Porsche as well.
Bugatti is essentially a rich man’s refined drag car for the streets. That’s what mostly all hypercars end up being. Porsche and McLaren are the only manufactures that make legit performance oriented hypercars.
I’m suprosed you wouldn’t increase output on the frs. Owners on forums and reviewers have said the addition of real quality tires make the car not as fun because it doesn’t slide anymore, and they feel the need for power. That car would do well with a good 53-60 mm turbo. If it came with that, I’d place it in the same tier as the RS or genesis
This has been Honda’s problem for ever. They always give you great platforms, but it costs a lot to get the most out of them because it’s locked behind potential or practicallity. My problem with the FRS is that it suffers from the same problems the RSX, S2k, or most of their cars suffer from. Extensive drivtrain replacement to get power out of them
While it might be fun to drift them, I’d drive them on road courses like Road America/Laguna/COTA and focus more on getting the lines down and timed events/club racing. I’d only increase the power to suite the track and not go over. But what do I know? LOL
You hit the nail on the head. That being said, neither the 86 nor the s2000 come track ready out of the box. To get started, you want an oil cooler and SS brake lines and a performance brakes. If you drive the car that hard without supporting mods, you will literally fry the car. Both cars are really flacid until you hit the last thousand rpm.
Practicing, studying and attaining understanding should precede an upgrade. There are too many bros people out there that just lower their car and make the springs super stiff without understanding why or how, and make the car undrivable on the street or track.
Ferrari didn’t make anything worth owning after the F40 for a while. The F430 is that car, but it was quickly outclassed, I’ll give ferrari a tip of my hat for trying to make functionality from the small things, but overall, they are lacking vehicles if your end game is performance outside the street drag race.
At a modest 250-275 hp and equal amounts of torque, you aren’t going to drift a car like that if you put modern sticky tires on it. You could, but you’d have to be shitting money to replace tires that aren’t cheap. And I don’t like drifting, it’s not I teresting outside of rally applications.
I’m not saying you dont know, nor am I trying to imply, but I can’t justify buying a car that underperforms, or requires significantly more money to make it fun after you progress. .
For any car that I modify, or plan to modify, I strive for a balance that will engage me at any level and most importantly do it’s job well. And everybody here can agree to that.
You can learn driving on the line, and corner entry exit on any car. So it makes more ssense to me to buy a cheaper car, or car of comparable price, that is faster out of the box new or used.
If the ultimate goal is to be a better driver, and learn, it makes more sense to buy a cheaper car with more potential at a reasonable price, or outright more performance, because a line is a line, and a limit is a limit.
For me a platform that can take me several tiers higher than introduction base level, without breaking the bank, is a better car. That’s my mode of thought when it comes to these things. How far my $$$ goes in the long run affects the overall greatness and competiveness of a platform.
Brz is a great Introductory platform, but imo that’s all it can do without breaking the bank and end up bei g less competive than other platforms
The German wiki is apperantly filed with significantly more engineering articles as well.
This has interested me for a bit. When I was looking to replace the pos coil overs my car came with, i learned that you can build a custom coilover set up provided your old coilovers could be disassembled. Places like Jegs and Summit Racing sell you coil over springs, and you can buy inserts that fit. I know this is something better left for the experts, but it is something interesting to mess around with.
Especially with the 86, I feel it’s better the way it is unless you’re optimizing for a specific track. I think most people go with Tein Flex Z or A for the FT86.
I have had a crappy weak trying to obtain particular financial certifications…sooo as a “fuck it” moment to make myself feel better, I sneaked the Vette out onto the street close to midnight for a quick spin. Only took it a half mile and without an alignment on the new suspension it rides terribly. BUT that 383 even not tuned is AMAZING! I’m running 1-3/4" headers into 3’’ true dual exhaust all the way to Magnaflows out back. At idle I was not sure about the noise level as it sounded a little much but I was very pleased with what little I got to do with the exhaust actually working under load. The bark does indeed have the bite to back it up.
I didn’t get on it too much but with it in first I gassed it briefly and the whole front popped right up and put me back in the seat. I didn’t even get to 4000 rpm where this motor actually comes online and starts making its power up to 6500 rpm. But a stroker motor is a stroker motor, so plenty of torque down low too. This car running like crap still feels WAY more powerful than that old 350 L98 that use to be in the car. The SPEC stage 3+ clutch is going to take some getting use to and be broken in but it does feel like overkill. Its very grabby, car shudders a lot if I don’t feed in more gas pedal than I’m used to, but only comparison I have is my little grocery getter 4 cylinder clutch, so not a fair comparison. Once it grabs though, bam, it’s hooked, it’s like this clutch is designed to make you drive fast. I got it because of its torque holding capacity in case I tried some spray. As I get use to driving it, it’ll become a favorite of mine.
Six speed works great, though I only got to use reverse, 1st and 2nd gears due to keeping speed low for now until an alignment. Buttery smooth shifting and this motor did not mind staying in first and going as fast I was, I was surprised, the exhaust just got louder and more beautiful. I’m pretty sure I’m in the minority who enjoys the American V8s in this thread but if you’re in the market for a project car, please do not write off an old 3rd gen F body or C4 Vette like mine. You can pick them up dirt cheap, drop a 383 stroker motor (or bigger!) in one and you’re done; good luck peeling that smile off your face.
nice man, I can’t wait until I have the space and to start building a proper project car.
The c4 doesn’t seem like a bad platform tbh. It has IRS, and solid proportion and it as a good 80’s flair to it. For me, it’s more aesthetics thing with that car. Some look great, others look terribad. It’s definetly an angle car, however, I won’t deny that the new z06 has a lot of ques from this car when it comes to the hood shape and top fender flares. If you don’t mind asking me, how much did this build cost you all toghether? around 10-15j?
Grab a drink before reading this novel. The build as a whole is more than I care to even think about as it’s been brand new everything under the fiberglass. I’ve got a folder with a STACK of paperwork for everything on this car bumper to bumper. A lot of people don’t even try because they say, “I don’t have that kind of money” but the key is to peck away at it slowly and enjoy the journey over a few years and do your research and have it all planned out BEFORE you start even turning one wrench. That saves a lot of money. The engine itself lets see:
Miniram intake with fuel rails: $800 (bought at a “bargain” price)
Hydraulic Roller block: $700
Forged crank: $350 (traded another roller block for it)
Crower Sportsman Stroker rods w/ 7/16 rod bolts: $750
SRP Forged pistons: $500
AFR 195 street heads: $1400
Comp Gold Aluminum 7/16 roller rockers: $150 (inside deal)
LS7 lifters: $100
Hardened pushrods: $70
Canton Oil Pan: $300
World Products 58MM Throttle body: $200
Steel Spec Flywheel (needed to balance the rotating assembly): $300
Balance job on rotating assembly: $1300 (But they claimed it was $1600 but cut me a break…)
ATI damper: $300
Cloyes Billet roller timing chain kit: $120
Milodon timing cover: $40
ARP bolts kit: $100
Builder cost to put it together: $500
A little close to 8 grand from those parts mentioned but I got some deals and was patient for over 5 years, otherwise you will see 10K pretty easy on a 383 “done right”. But even with my “deal”, then you have to factor in all the gaskets needed, drive accessories such as the water pump, alternator and power steering pump, the headers and all the other little things that will eventually push you over that 10K mark. That’s if you did it the way I did it, which was admittedly the wrong way. If you plan to do a stroker motor, go for the biggest build you can afford. I went 383 when an extra $500 would have got me a crank to do a 396 build and all the other parts prices you see listed would have stayed the same regardless. The 396 properly tuned will make 40-50 more hp everywhere from idle to redline, and that will be my regret someday knowing that I cheaped out. Then you have an option do a solid roller motor, which is a max effort build, which you do not skimp on parts because solids are all about high rpm operation. They also make the most power in any cubic inch configuration but solid roller motors are high rpm (7,000 rpm or higher) and do not like constant low speed or idling in traffic for long periods.
They also need to have the valve covers off and valves inspected quite often due to aggressive ramp rates on the solid roller cam versus the maintenance free hydraulic roller cams. If you like a motor that doesn’t wake up until 4,000 rpm and isn’t done until at least 7700 rpm, and you like inspecting valves on a religious schedule, then a solid is the way to go. But they are not for everyone and are not popular for street vehicles compared to the easier to maintenance hydraulic roller motor. I decided against a solid roller because I am very unfamiliar with them and they require a specific break in of valve adjustment that MUST be done properly or you just ruined a 12 grand motor. The trade off is a solid has strict setup and maintenance procedures, and street manners in normal driving make it unhappy, but a 383 solid roller gets you close to 600 horsepower at a ridiculous rpm level past 7000. The hydraulic roller motor is a maintenance free setup that will make significantly less power and anything past 6500 rpm is asking for valve float due to the valvetrain.
But you don’t have to do forged internals and AFR heads or miniram intake on a budget stroker build. You can easily hit 400+ hp out of a cast crank, budget rod, non forged pistons, and budget heads no problem. I got away from the TPI intake because I wanted something that could be wound up. The TPI isn’t for high rpm but matched with the right parts on a budget 383 it can make outstanding low end torque and decent mid range. I was warned cast cranks are not happy long term durability wise past 6000 rpm and I wanted 6500 rpm operation all day, and I didn’t want to gamble so I went forged steel crank, steel rods, and forged pistons. As far as drivetrain:
D44 heavy duty rear end with 3:45 rear end ratio (great gearing for fun on the street but I hear 3:73 is perfect): $1000
ZF six speed: $900
SPEC stage 3+ clutch: $700
Spicer U Joints: $300
Clutch hydraulics: $250
Exhaust:
Exotic Muscle 1-3/4" long tube headers: $600
3" pipe for true dual exhaust: $100
Magnaflow 3" mufflers: $360
Again, you don’t have to do 1-3/4" on a 383 but I got these at a good deal for them being EM headers. You can get the more ideal 1-1/2" long tube headers from Hooker Headers for $200, a great deal and they’ll last forever. Don’t need 3" exhaust either but I was in overkill mode, it just makes the car louder. 2.5" is just fine for any engine under 400 cubic inches. Spicer U joints were premium but you can do an autozone special with a budget build and be just fine. I had Neapco Brute Force joints in the box unused that I decided not to use and sold to another C4 owner that actually races his car on a road course and they’ve last him for several seasons, so for a street car, don’t poo poo on the autozone brands too much, they can work. Clutch hydraulics are a non negotiable, the ZF transmission demands brand new or as close to new operation as possible for it to stay happy. The ZF six speed probably should’ve been a T56 takeout from an Fbody but the ZF is a “direct drop in” (it isn’t).
Both the ZF and T56 require trimming of the drive tunnel to get them in place but once the ZF is in place there is not adjustments to the shifter needed as it was made with the C4 platform as the base. The downside is if there is a problem with the ZF, there are maybe two well known builders in the USA that know how to rebuild them, and the floor for doing so is $2500 minimum. Second gear synchros alone for a ZF cost the same as a whole set for a T10 four speed out of the earlier Corvettes! With the F body T56, everybody and their mom has rebuilt one and there are a bazillion of them, so parts are plentiful, the ZF was only used in the C4 for 8 model years…the parts are made of gold to say the least to sellers.
Then there’s the LS factor, they are just the hot engine for street cars now. Do your research. I talked to a guy with a 60s Camaro that sounded like it had a big block under the hood. When he popped the hood for me to take a look, he had a junkyard 5.3 liter LS truck motor bought for a couple of hundred bucks with a turbo on it cranking out 650+ horsepower. They spent a couple of hundred bucks on the motor, tore it apart to freshen up a few areas for a few hundred more, spent a couple of grand on a single turbo kit including the tuning to make it all work together, and just like that, the guy had a motor that was lighter than my 383 and makes 200 more horsepower. Unfortunately, parts yard owners are up to date on why guys want the LS truck motors, because they can take boost fairly well on stock internals and make ridiculous power. My used miniram intake that I got at a bargain was $800. You can get on ebay or any Vette website and buy a used LS intake manifold for I-shit-you-not $100 that will flow just as well if not better and weighs FAR less. LS manifolds are dry manifolds, so they do not flow coolant through them, less hassle and no worries about coolant mixing with oil like on a gen 1 or 2 sbc. They’re just better but the key to making them make my 10 grand engine build look like a pile of puke is really knowing your shit on parts selection.
If I had to do it all over again on the budget I have, I’d probably do a 5.3 LS truck motor with a single turbo and a T56 transmission. I don’t even know what I’ll do with the 470 horse I’ll get out of the 383, so a 650 horse boosted LS C4 would’ve been the last stop for me. A dream build: SRP dart block for a 427 solid roller motor set up for spray in front of a ZF six speed and 3.73 rear gearing. As far as the styling goes, it’s subjective. The C4 went from being my least favorite Corvette to my favorite after learning its history in the marque. The tide is turning in their favor slowly after all these years. The reserved styling is actually gaining fans during a time when every new car is going for dramatic in your face styling. You can still get them for cheap, and you can literally buy 3rd gen f bodies for $500 driving. The key is knowing how to do 95% of all the work yourself, that’s the key to making the dreams a reality. That’s how guys find and buy junkyard wrecked Vipers and have them back on the street looking like new. That much work is more than most people are willing to take on themselves but asking a shop to build you a car is asking for lots of trouble and triple (or more) the cost you’d ever want to spend on a build.
I dint think I could do a build if I couldn’t take the car out for a spi. Every once in a while. But it does take effort and time, especially if you wanna do it right the first time.
I’m suprosed people nearly caught on the 5.3 motors. Iron heads, and more robust build would make them boost monsters. But I know forced induction isn’t as popular as displaceme t.
