To feint doing a real EX Thunder knuckle? That’s literally my only use for it. I’ve actually found it as a decent tactic to set people up for the real EX thunder knuckle since it gets them to move (usually a jump) and then you immediately cancel into the real EX knuckle and anti air them. Obviously you want to have a lot of meter to burn if you’re going to try this though since you waste an EX meter just to feint the TK in the first place.
The anti air properties on EX thunder knuckle are surprisingly strong actually. At first I only used it to deal with Akuma air fireballs and teleports and just to randomly gain distance on the opponent but now I see that it actually has decent AA properties and it puts the opponent in a slow falling state that makes it easy to dash up and set up cross ups. I’ll have to test it out more in training mode to see exactly how good it is though.
I think EX.TK needs to be fully invincible, or at least go through projectiles, it’s a waste of meter as it is now IMHO.
That’s the only thing I’d change about Viper’s moveset for the next SF4 release, and allow for it to juggle 'cause I hate hitting people with it as an anti-air, and not being able to do anything as they fall.
I only use it for flash after dizzy instead of FFF if I have the meter, i’ll dash away and do: EX.TK > EX. Seismo xx SJC xx EX.TK. Besides looking steezy as fuck, it’s a worthless combo.
It is kind of a waste of meter but there is one really good use for it, its the best way to break people randomly fa’ing, if you learn the distance it works from you can even catch them after a dash back, and then you get a nice fat combo! yay.
EX Thunder Knuckle would be pretty stupid if it went full screen and had juggle properties. Viper has enough stuff that travels the full screen length instantly. EX Thunder Knuckle would then just be another scrubby EX move at that point and homogonize her more with the rest of the cast. I like how you have to think to get her EX thunder knuckle to hit the opponent instead of it just being a completely reactionary move. Akuma always has to be careful of EX thunder knuckle since moves that are normally safe for him to use like air fireball and teleports are very succeptable to it.
Like I’ve said before I’ve gotten it to work as a really long range anti air if I anticipate a jump against certain characters. You just gotta mess around with it more. It has its uses but because of the big start up you have to use more anticipation and thinking with it instead of just making it fly like Balrog’s rush punches.
I see what you mean, it would be a bit OP’d to have juggle properties, as if Viper didn’t already have combos out the ass. I don’t mind the start-up at all, I think it’s fine, IMO for it to be really worth the meter it needs to have projectile invincibility at least, Boxer’s TAP style, or Lp.TK. Needs to be timed and spaced right.
EX Seismo is fairly poor for avoiding projectiles, EX.BK is a bit better, but still lacks range and only really works on wake-up.
I find myself just Fierce Feinting sometimes so Hadoukens will go through me, Viper needs that EX.TK to have those frames.
Well guys, I’m coming back to SFIV full force again. I’m done with BB for a while and going to concentrate fully again on Viper, I need to get out to tournaments more… I’ve already skipped 2!
My Viper’s currently stuck in training mode trying to learning more techniques, so I’ve been using Cammy as of late in player matches against people on my friends list. And the saddest thing is, I feel more comfortable using Cammy against Ryu and Ken than I do with Viper. I’m going to yank Viper out of training and start fighting Ryus and Kens with her again to alleviate this problem…
Whoa! I thought it was just me, I feel the exact same way. I find that Cammy lacks the combos that Viper does, but her Spiral Out, Hooligan, and Cannon Spike can be used a lot easier.
All of the rogs turtle…period. :lol: That’s how you play Rog. You sit on safe options until you win. Only if the Rog player is totally getting beasted on does he have to really take risks and get in and even then his options for getting in are safer than a lot of the cast.
Pretty much how I feel. What I also like about Cammy is her Cannon Spike, it’s practically a DP and can FADC into Ultra with it too. Her normals and FA are much more solid, allowing me to utilize more footsies and her damage is very good. Plus the health really makes a difference, I can afford to make much more mistakes with Cammy then Viper. Finally, I know once I get in their face with Cammy, it’s game over, lol. Cammy’s pressure game is really good like Viper’s but I don’t have to worry about DPs as much because her blockstrings are better on block. Cammy’s lack of an overhead doesn’t really matter to me when I can force people into cracking under the blockstrings and TK Cannon Strike pressure and start laying into them.
However, when push comes to shove, it’s all about Viper. Viper has loads of great options. Plus she’s too cool.
I read up on the Cammy forums some and everyone there just seems to bitch about how bad she is, which I can see how Spinning Backhand is practically useless and Hooligan is pretty counterable, but overall I don’t think she’s THAT bad. I guess you could just sum it up by saying she’s more of a straightforward character than Viper, making it easier to go up against raw power like Ryu and Ken, though I personally haven’t fought a Sagat with her yet (thankfully I don’t come across too many).
I’ve faced Sagats, and I must admit, she’s kinda got it bad in that match-up, lol, but I still find it managable. I also heard that Gief gives her massive problems, thankfully I haven’t fought any Giefs with Cammy yet, lol. Yeah, a lot of people on the Cammy forums say she’s bad not only because of the things you mentioned, but because she lacks an overhead. I know down back blocks everything Cammy has but to me it doesn’t matter because she can still pile on the pressure loads and still has ways to break their defense. I personally think Cammy’s a decent character and that she’s underrated. People tend to look too much at a character’s cons rather than their pros. But then again, I’m no pro so I can’t say much.
Cammy players just don’t know how good they got it. They didn’t even start to know until Sanford got up there and did his thing at Evo. They don’t have CVS2 Cammy (who arguably had issues herself) so they whine and moan. It’s not like any version of Cammy was seriously good outside of CVS2 Cammy any ways (and arguably only an extreme threat in P groove).
Cammy is arguably one of the safest characters to use in the game. She’s Rufus with an actual dragon punch that requires zero meter and is safe on block on some characters. Even then the quick recovery makes it difficult to punish on reaction. If a charge character isn’t sitting on down back you can just whip it out for free. Plus with meter it can be FADC’d into another DP which does ridiculous damage for a combo with no Ultra at the end. Plus the Ultra does good damage too if tacked on even if it doesn’t fully hit. On top of that one of the best focus attacks in the game. Making her footsie game way better almost instantly. I would say almost second to Fei’s. Not to mention the only thing I see Rufus having over Cammy is much better health for a character that moves quickly as he does. Offensively (and in some ways defensively) I now believe Cammy is better than Rufus. Her basic combos also do just as much damage as Rufus’.
The talk about Cammy not having an overhead…there’s some babies in that thread that’s for sure. If Cammy had an overhead she’d be a 3rd Strike character and that’s what they are trying to stay away from in SFIV. Overheads are supposed to be a unique element for certain characters. Not something that everyone needs to have added to their game. Why the heck would Cammy need an overhead when she has a Rufus dive that does chip damage…hits even tighter and lower to the ground and basically sets up counter hit and throw games for free? Come on with that. :lol: Yeah they gave Viper an overhead because she doesn’t have a near complete lock down game in her strings. She requires a bit more thought in her mix ups since she doesn’t have any frame trap strings.
Rufus also has just as much trouble against Gief and Sagat (arguably his worst 2 matches) so he doesn’t win over her there either. **She’s basically a faster…better Rufus. **Yeah Rufus can take hits better but I like Cammy’s offensive and defensive options better overall. The only other real glaring issue I can see Cammy having is that certain characters can spam focus at her since she doesn’t have any good armor breaks or a quick 2 hitting move. Even then focuses can be baited and that’s what Cammy excels at any ways. Cammy never really needed spinning backhand to be a decent character and people just want everyone of Cammy’s special moves to be really good. Guile does good with 2 so I say deal with it. EX hooligan is good for shenanigans and that’s the only hooligan you should ever use IMO.
^
Lol, yeah, before SF4, Cammy’s pretty much never been good. I hardly see any Cammys being used in any of the other games. I think another thing Rufus has over Cammy is that he has a lot of ways to combo into his Ultra, but to be honest, it’s not like Cammy’s Ultra is that difficult to combo into anyway, all you really need is Cannon Spike FADC>Ultra.
And you’re right, if Cammy had an overhead, you could cause the ultimate lockdown once you got in. You’ve got Strikes chipping your health, you try to throw escape from tick throws, you could get hit by a TK Strike which can’t be grabbed out of, you block low, you get overheaded, you block high, you get a low string into Spiral Arrow, and you get to start it up all over again. Did I mention you can cross up with Strike? You can also manipulate Strike so that it still stays fairly low to the ground but it can’t get hit by low attacks like jabs and stuff. The overhead would have to be really, REALLY slow in order to balance it out, and even then…You could only really backdash or DP, but they don’t work all the time.
Cammy’s got a great pressure game already, better than Viper’s I say.
Money says someone from the Cammy board will tell us to STFU soon, lol.
Having a really bad day today, execution’s gone down again. Plus there’s a player on my friends list called InsanityOfTwins who’s pretty nasty with Bison and never, ever, ever misses his combos. EVER. On any other day, we’d go toe to toe with each other but today my execution was crap so he won the set 3-2.
EDIT: Maybe “ultimate” lockdown was exaggerating a little, lol. But yeah…
^…heh, Cammy isn’t that great…even Sanford himself knows that she can be exploited and has a number of near un-winnable match ups.
Her dive kick blocked high is deceivingly terrible. She has to resort to random cannon spike if she wants you to stop pressing buttons. But with her vitality, it isn’t the smartest thing to do…so a lot of the time the opponent gets away.
Her punishment is up there with Viper’s, it’s great. But if people just block, crouch tech, and back dash…she won’t have much to go on. All those huge combos have to come from somewhere…and ‘creating’ is not what Cammy is best at.
She has some good counter poking properties, but as for regular footsies…she won’t be beating many to the punch.
I agree that she is better than ‘teh suck’ tier or how the majority thinks, but you made it seem like she’s really good. I think she’s just a really good gimmick at the beginning.
Yeah I guess what I’m trying to say is that Rufus works heavy on gimmicks and really she’s trying to do the same darn thing and in some ways I see her doing it better. I don’t see her doing terribly against anyone other than Gief and Sagat. I would assume Akuma, Guile, Gouken, Seth and Ryu also give her trouble but not un winnable. I dunno…I just see more potential in her than anything and the things the people in the Cammy thread want to give to her to make her better would just make her ridonkulous.
Hmm wow. I feel totally the opposite way to everyone here. Cammy was one of the first characters I learned in IV (and I knew bits and pieces from other games), and after maybe a week of playing Viper, I already felt more comfortable in matches than with Cammy.