Ah, I was really hoping Rorschach would keep his yap shut and secretly plan Ozy’s downfall, but that was too much to ask.
That’s what I would do anyway, especially with big blue hovering around, but then again, I’m not a crazy ass vigilante.
I was flipping through my Watchmen trade a few weeks ago. Haven’t read it in a year. Good stuff.
Monster being replaced by a laser is indeed gay.
It is my opinion that, judging from the hints in the book, Rorschach indeed causes the downfall of Veidt’s plan. No need for him to be alive to see it.
im afraid to read this thread lookin for a review, just answer me somethin, was the movie good?
…The movie isn’t out yet.
I wrote a blog post about Watchmen, explaining a few things about it for the noobs and briefly touching on my skepticism about the film. I’ll get into all that more in-depth in my next entry.
Spoiler free, of course.
So how exactly are they implementing lasers into that sequence, is it going to be some ID4 shit?
If they’re not idiots, then they’ll handle it like they do in the book. Nobody actually sees what happens. It happens so fast that all we’re privy to is a flash of light, and the next thing we see is the carnage in the aftermath. It’s the most psychologically effective and least gratuitously violent way of approaching the scene.
If they are idiots–and I’m betting they are–yeah, it’s probably going to be some ID4 shit.
Looks like they’re not punking out after all. Wow. I’m impressed.
Just finished reading the GN myself. First of all I have to say I absolutely hate Jon, after all that emo garbage, he’s the deciding factor meant to change the course of humanity by killing Rorschach, and then he just leaves again…very lame imo.
My take on the ending is that people will believe the journal because Jon tells Ozy that nothing ever ends, in other words history will just continue to repeat itself, which to me means he just delayed the struggle between war and peace.
Anyway, it was a good read. I’m anxious to catch things I missed my 2nd time around.
Is hooded justice just not mentioned anymore, or did I just miss that completely?
hooded justice
Spoiler
He got killed; presumably by the comedian, we don’t know who really killed him.
Some more subtext that I think is read in some of the end of issues articles and such is that comedian killed him because he was Gay. Or at least for some reason I remember that. I also remember somewhere else that they mentioned one of the other ones was gay too.
Jon wasn’t being emo. His progressive alienation from humanity was very real, not just the result of listening to too many AFI records.
When your perception has widened to include everything in the universe both above and below humanity’s notice, humanity itself becomes an ever-shrinking concern to you. This was discussed in the book, particularly in Veidt’s interview with Whatsisface from the liberally-minded news magazine. Put yourself in Jon’s shoes: how would your life change if human conflict was no different to you than black ants vs. red ants?
And especially take into consideration that Jon was never very assertive, either before or after his accident. He always tended to let life wash over him and let other people dictate his decisions to him. Everything he did was based on what others wanted out of him, so all of his Earthly concerns stemmed from the wants and needs of the people in his life. When those people slowly stopped mattering to him, what does that do to his Earthly concerns?
The thing with him leaving at the end to create life in another galaxy is a little bit of sci-fi fun that Alan Moore is having with us. It carries with it many implications, including the one that our own existence might have happened because of a being like Jon, who views humans as a curious scientist would view germs in a petri dish (which is basically what Jon is anyway).
I agree with you. I think there are strong implications that Veidt’s efforts were all for naught, and that he was naive to believe that A. one man, even the smartest man with all the resources, could possibly end all wars, and B. his plan was so airtight that he could have eliminated all of the loose ends.
The clincher, to me, was when Veidt began to tell Jon about his dream, then cut himself off. He was pretty obviously describing the ending of Tales of the Black Freighter, and while Veidt’s own position at the end of the story was morally ambiguous, the mariner’s position was not. The mariner had murdered his own family through the misguided belief that he was saving them from an imminent threat, and thus ensured himself a place on a ship of doomed souls. If Veidt subconsciously believed himself to be the mariner, then he himself must have know that the peace between the U.S. and the Soviets would fail–rendering his plan nothing more than a pointless and horrible mass-murder.
What would be his ultimate undoing is anybody’s guess. Rorschach’s journal is still in the crank file at the New Frontiersman, Jon makes the entirely valid claim that “nothing ever ends” (war being one of the most enduring characteristics of human civilization), and while Dan and Laurie have vowed to remain silent, there’s no guarantee that they will. It’s just a matter of which of these uncontrolled factors comes into play first.
This is why I believe that Tales of the Black Freighter is absolutely essential to the story, and one of the many reasons why the film will be an incomplete and inferior experience.
The suggestion isn’t that the Comedian killed him for being gay, but that he killed him for what he perceived as a personal insult back at the Minutemen meeting. Given Blake’s cynical view of human morality, he probably felt that Hooded Justice’s treatment of him was unjustified, even after what he did to Sally Jupiter.
The other member who was homosexual was the Silhouette, who is discussed only fleetingly in the book. It is implied that, after her name went public in a scandal over her sexual orientation, one of her old enemies was able to track her down and kill her for revenge.
I think he’s referring to Captain Metropolis.
Oh, yeah. That guy was definitely a bottom.
Sorry if I shouldn’t discuss this hear, but I’ve been hearing rumors that the ending WILL be changed in the movie.
just started reading it. currently at chapter 4
yeah i understand your point, but my point was that if he cared so little about humanity, then why would he stop rorschach. Rorschach dying was a necessity to the story, but at least let it be by the actual bad guy, not just Jon who basically fills in the gaps.
To the OP, I agree, Rorschach is an ideal and a representation of right and wrong which died doing what it believed was right. The man inside however was confused and facing death.
just finished it…
on the movie
im definitely seeing this work’s influence on so many other hero-genre movies, tv shows, (and video games of course).
im becoming extremely skeptical about the movie after having read this. the psychological/moral component is so strong that i think the movie will essentially sell itself out in the name of making money.
there are so many things going on the graphic novel that im afraid so much of it will be trimmed from the movie translation-- stripping the movie down to just its bare plot elements.
i think if the movie creators are going to try to preserve as much of the gn as possible, theyll have to disregard what appeals to a younger, typical superhero audience. younger people cant feel the cold war backdrop like everyone else. the ending has so much more umph and meaning when placed in that context.
an analysis of the graphic novel
i see why after telling a friend of mine that i really dig the fact the dark knight contains some shades of gray and presents a moral dilemma, he highly suggested picking the watchmen up. throughout the entire novel, i found myself sympathizing and antagonizing a wide variety of characters.
the most interesting character i thought was jon, aside from his obvious supernatural abilities. hed gone back and forth periodically between god and human, deliberating morals from an objective standpoint, and then swinging the other way when he felt it necessary. on so many occasions youd see both his strengths and weaknesses come out. and then he transcends his humanity, with an interest in creating new life, as if he’d seen and felt all he needed and could with that humanity.
on veidt
moore did SUCH a good job of hinting that veidt sold himself out in the name of money. i was duped for the longest time until everything resolves in the last few chapters. which kind of surprised me: the climax happens so quickly relative to the rest of the book. at first i thought, well they couldve have drawn this out a littttle bit more and made it more exciting. and then after thinking about it, i realized that this novel was meant to place emphasis on the psychological and moral, rather than the sheer excitement of the plot. up until the end, id thought veidt was a bystander, a victim, a sellout, without morals, a man only lusting for power, and finally a hero.
his justification was just like america’s for dropping the bombs in japan. killing some lives, to save more lives which still perplexes me and leaves me scratching my head about whats wrong and right in the world. and thats what made the watchmen so good.
There is no bad guy, at least, not in the traditional sense. Veidt might as well be talking directly to the reader: “Morally, you’re in checkmate.” Is Veidt the bad guy for murdering half of NYC? Maybe, but no more a bad guy than America as a whole was for the atomic bombings in WWII. Is Rorschach the bad guy for trying to thwart Veidt’s mission to save the world? He could be. Is Dr. Manhattan the bad guy for killing Rorschach before he could blow the whistle on Veidt? Thinking in terms of good guys and bad guys is facile superhero comic book stuff, and it is antithetical to how Watchmen works.
As for killing Rorschach, that’s an interesting subject. Rorschach wanted him to do it. Maybe Jon did it because it was easy, like swatting a fly, or maybe he did it as his last humane act. I would bet the latter.
finished it now great story.
from reading some other posts my view on Rorschach was that it was Rorschach going to leave and do his thing,UNTIL kovacs came out and took control and knew the only way for the whole plan to work.
its been awhile since i felt really hyped or emotional for something.
for example when mason died i was angry SO fucking angry! because reading his biography felt so REAL and how he worked hard and felt happy retiring and working in his shop, then the kids found him dead… gosh. really sad for him
funny moments also with Rorschach of all people, his inkblot tests were funny, his wit and that fight with OZ was just so funny with him and the fork.
i laughed hard for the nite owl snow suite, so weird lol
so much stuff i might have missed. but like that bernie said i have to read over because i missed stuff, or someshit like that.
great book i hope to see my favorite parts turn out good in the movie.