just realized that it wasn’t Roscharch who died, but it was Kovacs.
Why is this important? I think because Rorsharch can’t handle the situation(It having alot of grays in it)… which is why he is crying under that mask.
Your thoughts?
Given the recent trailer release, a lot of new people are either going to pick up or have recently picked up Watchmen. It might be for the best to use spoiler tags on all Watchmen related talk for a while, or at least put a spoiler warning in the thread title.
Also
[details=Spoiler]Kovacs is just a man. Rorschach represents the actions, ideas, and principles that Kovacs carried out in his vigilante guise. To put it generally, actions, ideas, and principles live on. They can’t be killed, even if the people who carry them out can. To put it specifically, Rorschach’s actions, ideas, and principles will go on to undermine everything Veidt sought to accomplish after the story ends.
Kovacs might be crying because he can’t handle the moral ambiguity. On some level, he must know that staying silent is for the best, even if every other fiber of his being fights against that idea. It’s cognitive dissonance at its most extreme.
Who knows? Maybe he’s crying because he knows it’s too late for humanity, given that he released his journal to the press. He knows that getting killed won’t stop him from thwarting Veidt’s plan after all.[/details]
thnks for the insight goodmourning. i too just finished the watchmen, and you cleared up the ending a bit for me
add me to the “recently introduced” catagory. i’m reading the gn for teh second time right now, and i find myself in awe of how amazing the story is. i spend half my time reading and half my time engaged by the amazing artwork in each panel.
on topic, i haven’t had enough time to fully digest everything iread on my first read through, but i do like the idea of the duality of rorschach and kovaks and their moral dilema…
I think Kovacs lost his humanity to become Rorschach. The Comedian and Rorschach both share the anarchist philosophy of the world. The way they handle this philosophy is different. Comedian went amoral, almost becoming a personified caricature of the world he saw around him. Rorschach applies his own moral code to the random pattern of life. To do this, both men needed to lose their humanity, because man cannot hold such ideals. Rorschach, at the end, gained his humanity back, his tears (his humanity) breaking through the rigid rules he forced upon himself and the world.
This is my interpretation.
Rorschach and the Comedian are fascists. Neither one of them is an anarchist, because they don’t believe that people are best left to govern themselves.
The difference is, Rorschach believed so strongly in his world view that he was willing to take it to the grave with him. The Comedian’s own world view was merely a construction he used to shield himself against some of the harsher realities of the universe. He wasn’t able to keep it up anymore after he discovered Veidt’s plan, hence his cryptic drunken encounter with Moloch.
Perhaps Rorschach lost his humanity, but the Comedian was just faking it.
interesting idea.
I think you’re right about the two characters politically. I’m approaching this more from a philosophical standpoint than a political one, it was ambiguous what I meant though. I think they don’t believe in any kind of rhyme or reason to the universe. This is, though not typically described this way, anarchy. They see no reason or law to the universe, that everything is naught. I’m thinking nihilist I believe. Both characters see no order (or goodness) in the world, comedian takes that world and becomes a manifestation of it, Rorschach tries to being order to the madness.
Yeah, nihilism definitely fits what you’re talking about. Rorschach certainly has a nihilistic world view, though his moral code is anything but. The Comedian is a full-on nihilist, but again, it’s mainly his crutch for dealing with the universe rather than what he honestly believes at the deepest level.
The Comedian actually resembles the Joker in this regard, particularly Moore’s take on the character from the Killing Joke. For them, the comedy stems from what they perceive to be the ultimate meaninglessness of the universe, and the joke is the lengths people go to in order to convince themselves that it isn’t so. The difference being, of course, that the Joker is legitimately nuts.
For the Comedian particularly, his belief system is enforced by the seeming inexorability of nuclear Armageddon, so naturally his whole ideology crumbled when he discovered that Veidt had appeared to do the impossible: stop the war and unite the world.
Thanks to Rorschach, that didn’t end so well, but the Comedian wasn’t around to see it. Rorschach, in his refusal (inability?) to yield, was the one loose end that Veidt couldn’t tie up.
Kovac’s/Rorschach’s crying death could mean a number of things. It doesn’t necessarily mean that it was Kovacs and not Rorschach who died… which is one of the reasons everyone loves the novel, it’s goddamned ambiguity.
a.) Rorschach is crying because he’s frustrated that he’s powerless to undo what happened - remember, even with the diary, it will always be (dead) Rorschach’s word again Ozy’s. And it wouldn’t really be hard for Ozy to prove himself innocent because:
[LIST]
[]It’s the word of OZYMANDIAS, retired superhero millionare, loved by all, vs RORSCHACH, pscyhopathic, schizoprenic, general nutjob
[]Dreidberg would go against Rorschach’s word; and considering he is Rorschach’s partner in the diary, that would be a huge point in Ozy’s favour.
[*]Ozy is possibly the smartest man on Earth. He’d figure out a way.
[/LIST]
b.) Kovacs is crying because he’s regained his humanity at the moment of his death. He is probably also crying because once again, he will not have the guarantee of proving Ozy’s guilt.
Of course, these are just my interpretations, and with the openness of the novel, it could quite possibly be also
SECRET OPTION c.) Rorvacs is crying because he’s actually Doc Manhattan in disguise all along, and he knows he lost dat Jupussy to a fat guy dressed in an owl costume. Fuck…i’d be crying too.:shake:
I think the reason he takes his mask off is just because of the intense emotion Moore wanted to convey in the scene. I don’t know nothing about fascism, nihilism, anarchism, Marxism, or Dadaism.
I think that scene where he takes off the mask is the climax of the emotional aspect of the narrative, though. Up to that point, it’s made clear that Rorschach’s mask is the true face he prefers to show the world. I can only imagine the fury and emotion that would compel him to remove it. It kind of reminds me how dudes in biblical times would rip off their robes whenever they heard horrible news.
I also remember reading an interview with Moore where he said that he basically had Rorschach remove his mask because “it just felt right” as he got to know the character. Don’t know if you guys like it when writers talk about their own work, but it always fascinates me to hear about what they were thinking when they wrote it.
Did some googling and I think I found the interview.
There’s a similarity with the films of Robert Bresson, in that his films typically involve emotionally closed-off characters who finally exhibit some kind of passionate outburst at the end. Bresson made his films this way in order to provide his characters with a sense of redemption, or at least catharsis.
Kovacs removing his mask and crying could be thought of in that way, as a final moment of emotional outlet for a character who is otherwise flat and withdrawn.
besson?
.
No.
Let me ask since if you’ve come in here, it means you’ve probably read it and speaking openly won’t destroy anything.
How do you all think this will hold up in the public? The destruction of New York, Comedian killing a pregnant lady…do you think the majority of The Watchmen will make it to film, or will it get toned down a few notches?
A lot of people I’ve asked say “They pulled it in Cloverfield, so why not?” A creature rampaging through a major city is a wee bit different from a creature specifically engineered to perform what’s certainly going to be perceived as a “terrorist attack.” Plus, Alan Moore’s books have always been toned down in transition to film.
Thoughts?
The monster is being replaced by a giant laser, that’s all we know for sure.
Meh. I think we’ve gotten past the point where a significant number of people will get automatically threatened with a giant whatever. It’s a much easier thing to talk about in fiction now, especially when the source material for said fiction predates the actual event by over a decade.
Gay.
WHAT? 
Seriously?
i had never heard of watchmen until i saw the trailer. im thinking of picking up the graphic novels. how much is that gonna cost me/where can i get them?
about $20 at your local comic book store mayne for the complete graphic novel, otherwise:
10 bones right there
There was probably a lot of shit that was running through his head at the time as Desi said. I’d like to see it as him being so angry and distraught of the injustice and betrayal that happened right before his eyes he’s just hurt. Even though he has a low opinion of the other masks, it must be so painful in his eyes to be a vessel of absolute truth to have the real plot be hidden away from him, especially when he’s knee deep in the revelation of the conspiracy. I wouldn’t personally say he regained his humanity but couldn’t believe the extent of betrayal happening to him.
OC