Uhm, no. Yoshi is one of the best in the game, hands down. Mitsu also has problems with Ivy, and Voldo can give him a hard time with 1B placement. Besides X, Voldo, and maybe Cervy, who else gives Yoshi a hard time? Nobody. And it’s not like he loses to X either. Shit, he’s a hell of a lot better off than the majority of characters. I think the main reasons Mitsu does better against X are his ability to get more damage off a blocked 3A, and the fact that his 2K,B is more damaging than Yoshi’s main lows.
mitsu vs ivy /voldo is break even both fights. 1b is not much of a problem unless hes abusing kbs. however it does not escape stuff like 8wr 3_9b , so hes gotta watch how he uses that move.
ivy against mitsu is all about reading your opponent. from mid distance , slight advantage to ivy but still mitsu can block all of her stuff on reaction. she also has to be wary of kb’s so she cant just spam out attacks and keep out all day. so he definately has opportunities to get in. of course, the main goal being, floor her and wake ups. what ivy wants to do is keep away , step and punish his more linear attacks. ivy also murders throw attempts with her 1a, mitsu doesnt really need to throw against her, she doesnt punish is sweep that badly either if youre safe with it and see it hit. he also kills her jump back retreat moves with 8wr3_9bs. its a pretty even fight.
mitsu does better against X because he can out turtle her and win. she cant just sit back and wait for him because his turtle breaking skills are superior to hers. his low is better than hers, if he lands one 2kb its wake up time (and no, cry baby aint’ going to save her ), while her little pecks are annoying but not nearly as effective in a turtle battle. they can play same style if you simplify mitsu down . not to mention mitsu has a sort of kara throw, mst >throw. another turtle breaker. long A attacks and overall range advantage. kb2 tracks 8wr2_8bs, pretty good stuff! the key in this match up is dumbing down mitsu. alot of them get stance crazy or try for weird set ups, but he can win by out turtling her. hes also the best in the game at punishing her launcher with advance guard AA’s (longest 10 frame strikes in the game)
however yoshi cannot, he dont really have any of these tools i mentioned, not to mention his basic AA’s are slower. he has to come into her “wheel house” basically the yoshi player has to be ALOT better than the X player to win. if he can see her lows on reaction this will help alot, but still, he has to get inside and this is risking alot. and no, he cant turtle with meditation either. a good spaced X will stay in her range and if you meditate bop you on the head with the 6b+k? i believe that move that leaps and slashes down.
i rate mitsu, x, ivy and taki as top. after that probably yoshi, nightmare, cervy cass/sophie, kilik,talim. asta and voldo, really depends on the player but in the right hands these characters can be devastating. i dont really know enough about necrid but i hear hes pretty cheesy.
yoshis bad match ups- X (very tough), mitsurugi (ditto),
mitsu bad match ups- nightmare( tough), cervy (advantage cervy, but not by much).
Maybe Voldo, but Ivy? I don’t see it. Mitsu has one of the worst steps in the game and has problems with being linear in general. Ivy can out-space him, stay out of 2KB range, and step his ass for free. On top of that, she does a shit-load more damage. It doesn’t matter if you can read your opponent if you don’t have a practical counter to them in the first place.
Dude, X is arguably the best turtle character in the game 'cause she’s so rediculously safe. Without 2KB, Mitsu couldn’t out-turtle her worth shit. Her basic high/mid/low mixup is disgustingly safe and all leads to solid damage. And if she launces your ass with 22B, you’re losing about 30%, plus wakeup. I wouldn’t exactly call those little pecks.
Which is good if they have to guess or are just standing there like an idiot. Otherwise, she’s gonna step your ass and get a free 22B or just backdash.
I don’t really see how Mitsu has a range advantage. He’s only scary in 2K range. Otherwise, his mid-range game isn’t much to worry about for her. And X’s basic A and B have awesome range. Her 3B has great range as well (almost as much as Nightmare’s, Jesus). If she steps 1 or 7 at the very tip of her B range, there isn’t much you can do to stop her.
A lot of moves track 22B. Problem is, if it’s a turtle fight, you’re not gonna see this move in general unless it’s guaranteed to hit. kB/kB2 is generally unreliable against X anyways. It’s easy for her to step, and kB2 on block doesn’t do much 'cause she can easily RG out of range. Plus, it has a nasty tendency to whiff her even when she’s standing still 'cause she’s such a small target.
It’s not that I disagree with you. I definitely think Mitsu is strong against X. But that’s mostly 'cause 2K is so strong, and he gets good damage off a blocked 3A. Otherwise, he still has a lot to worry about in this fight.
Thing is, it IS hard to out-turtle Yoshi because of meditation. Just quick installments are useful, especially if you’re roughly even in life. Quickly sit down and G cancel, it’s hella safe. You’ll need to stay at a certain range to counter with 6B+K, so he can still force you to act. She’s hardest to get in when she’s backdashing, but that gives you more than enough room to backdash yourself and meditate. And best part is, if you guess right when she tries to punish you, she loses 40%+.
The main reason why I see Mitsu doing better is 'cause he doesn’t have to get in as much, just within 2K range. But other than that, Mitsu doesn’t exactly shut her main tools down for free. He still tends to be riskier than Yoshi, especially with X’s ability to avoid kB altogether.
Granted, Yoshi is at risk when he’s trying to get in. But once he IS in, you’re set. His anti-low game is very strong. If you anticipate 3A, you can Stomp to Pogo rush for solid damage. You can also try A+B to Pogo K against lows, which nabs you about 50%. Both have you in a jumping state, so you can easily afford to get hit by AA or 3B.
Otherwise, her basic tools aren’t as effective against Yoshi at that range. While he doesn’t get as much damage as Mitsu off 3A at any range, he’ll still get a mixup, which makes it easier to get in. Up close, blocked 3A=free WS K for plenty of damage. And just like Mitsu, he gets a free AA off a blocked 3B. Or he could just do a single A, which gives him +7-8 on hit, so he gets in for free there. And thanks to his good blockstun, he can discourage AA and go into 1A mixups.
Personally, I see this as being even, maybe give a slight advantage to X.
you dont need to step much against ivy. like i said, you can block everything she can do on reaction. its not like shes building meter back there. all her lows are easy to read, so you can pick and choose your spots. with advance guard its even more difficult for her to push him out. mitsus going to get in, its only a matter of time. and again, like i said she cant just spam out attacks cause he can easily hit between them . once he knocks her down (not difficult) shes puddy in his hands. you can track her with things also, 4a, 6a, sweep her after she finishes a step. step is not going to save her in this fight. its aLL ABOUT READING THE BITCH! :lol:
X is the best turtle in the game, but mitsu matches up well with her. ive already stated my case as to why. he has those SAME basic high/mid/low and both of their lows are punishable, but mitsus is obviously better while X’s mid launcher is superior. mitsus low is something that forces you to account for it. getting hit by a single non ch 3a is blah, i would need to get hit by 3-4 to make me start thinking about ducking and possibly eat a mid. one mitsu sweep can turn things around, thats why he can win this match up.
you dont use it when theyre standing, you use it when they do things they think are “safe” like whiffing aa’s fishing for a ch, or if you block their 3b from a distance and they think they could just be block and have safely. theres applications that fuck up their turtling hopes if used correctly :lol: not to mention, mitsu mst aaa tracks pretty well, cancel to stance and cancel out of rlc. youll be fine even if they step!
mitsus range is superior. 4a is a huge horizontal that cuts step. his normal A’s are longer than her “awesome” range A’s and just as fast. 6a leads to ch damage. 6b8 is a great range poke. mst stance games are good to advance as well. mst cancel moves you in and makes them react in some way (like you said they cant just stand their, if they try to ch you they eat mst ab) . mitsu also has 8wr3_9b (completely safe ) 8wr2_8b slahses. the only tool she has superior to mitsu at this range is her 3b, something mitsu can punish on block! her 66a, easily punished on block as well.
i disagree, i think its a GREAT attack against X. if it forces step, that leads into mitsus hands. mitsu wants you to keep stepping, cause the bytch cant block her feet well when she does so ! lol steps have lag unless you do 8wr moves. it makes things easier, its easy to get in on this broad. use normal kb, this move tracks better than 2kb (weird) and crushes anything she does. her only answer is STEP. if you can limit someones options that much, you can atleast know what to expect. you just cant be stupid with this move, but placed correctly the ch damage and follow ups to the normal kb is pretty damn strong. theres a risk and a reward.
its an even fight for mitsu, but yoshi is disadvantaged.
mediation is useless against X unless in long range. im telling you X can 6b+k you on reaction (she should be in the range to hit you with this move ANYWAY if shes across the screen shes just being retarded). nothing yoshi does out of med will beat it, and i dont think G cancelling is safe either. you can enter med, and immediately tap 8 but you have no time to gain life. the 6b+k will whiff and youll be in pogo stance with X standing. well to me, this isnt accomplishing much at all. so ive come to the conclusion meditation is useless against X.
youd seriously be suprised how good the move can be on her, you just gotta place it in proper times. fish for counter hits, not to lead aggressively. if X is getting too careless throwing out attacks at mid range this is the proper time, or right after shes coming out of a step. it should NOT be used to generate offense.
thats actually a good strat to try, but i doubt pogo k is fast enough. but remember, her stepping launcher always juggles you (even if youre in the air), so you are not safe predicting all the time. if you try to jump attack or pogo and she does 8wr2_8b youre screwed.
punishing X 3b with yoshi aa is much more difficult to hit than mitsu. a frame is a big difference! especially in soul calibur, attacks hit on different frames. at its earliest yoshis a’s hit at 11, but usually at the space X is doing her 3b’s, even with advance guard it wont hit properly! its pretty difficult to do on reaction. mitsus is easier and more precise.
the big difference here like i said earlier, mitsu can play the turtling game with x. yoshi cannot. yoshi has to come inside, and inside is where x can hurt people 
mitsu just needs to knockdown! thats why hes so damn good. he can total cut any characters powers away by just flooring them, same thing with asta by Gi-ing someone. suddenly, X doesnt look so tough when shes been gi-ed by asta. same thing with mitsu, just drop the bitch and watch her panic! yoshi works too hard in this match up
Great, you don’t need to step Ivy. Doesn’t really help Mitsu’s linearity issues. And blocking Ivy’s best tools on reaction doesn’t do you much good, considering how safe she is, plus her excellent blockstun. Say you block 4A+B. Woohoo. You’re now facing one nasty mixup.
This only applies to her crappy lows. Her best low, hands down, is K2. Hell, that move is practically safe even if it whiffs, and it tracks to one side.
You seem to have this strange notion that Ivy doesn’t want to get in herself. Considering how 2A is arguably the best poke in the game, plus the fact that her other close-range options are very safe and lead to rediculous damage, it’s not like Mitsu gains anything once he’s in unless he’s in total control of the fight. And you don’t seem to understand just how big of a problem Ivy’s step is for him. She can severely restrict what you can do from mid-range, and she has an easy time stepping up close as well.
Please tell me what easy counter Mitsu has to 2A.
4A and 6A both lose to step guard. 2K can be stepped pretty consistently by Ivy unless she’s at a disadvantage. You’re basically saying that Mitsu 0wn5 Ivy because he can sweep her and go into wakeup. How does that not apply to every other character in the game?
And I agreed with you. Twice IIRC.
And it defeats step-guard how?
But you already stated that this is going to be a turtle’s fight. These tools are all good, but unless you’re in 2K range, she has no reason to get hit.
If and when I actually meet an X player who uses 66A, I’ll let you know.
And you don’t seem to account much for X players who just walk backwards. Seriously, stop making so many assumptions if you want to argue that Mitsu can beat turtle X. He can, just that he needs to apply his 50/50’s. A lot of what you mentioned is only safe in situations where she’s unable to evade him.
Uhm, or not. What can he do to stop her from stepping at mid-range? Nothing. Heck, what can ANYBODY do to really counter step from mid-range? Nothing. Even if she doesn’t step it, it DOES NOT reliably track her, due to her small size.
Uhm, where have YOU been in the past year or so?
First off, there’s step-guard, which instantly blocks all highs and mids that would otherwise hit you. So unless you’re in 2K range (and 2K can be stepped anyways), you have nothing to directly threaten her with.
Second, stepping 1 or 7 moves you out farther. Considering X’s mid-range game, this makes her very scary when it comes to controlling space. Mitsu doesn’t necessarily outspace X (at least not in as safe a manner as he could), it’s just that he can force her to guess even if he doesn’t get guaranteed damage, and restricts her 3A abuse (note that WS A+B,A is still safe on block).
Third, you like to bring up AG a lot. But what about RG? X is very light weight, so her RG is second only to Talim’s. This alone makes kB2 worthless unless it hits (and as previously mentioned, it doesn’t hit her reliably). It’s also why going into Mist really isn’t that great of an idea in general at mid-range, especially considering the previous 2 points.
Fourth, you can cancel step with 6 or 4 anyways. You can even cancel it into a GI. There’s also slidestep.
Please tell me something I don’t know. I’ve had to deal with kB abuse for over a year, and in all honesty, I was more scared by kB before kB2 came out. While kB2 forces people to step more, he’s not well equipped to handle step in the first place. Shit, I play Asta, and I can consistently PT kB from mid-range now. Mitsu can still own Asta with kB, but I now feel safer against that move because I’ve learned how to space against it.
Of course, the move is still good if applied right. But that’s making a lot of assumptions, and it’s naive to assume turtle X will be open to it. She’s just so safe, and it’s not reliable against her, even on counter hit.
But Yoshi has the most problems against X when she’s backdashing (heck, EVERYBODY has the most problems against X when she’s backdashing). Thus, he can force her to close the gap by backdashing himself and meditating. If she actively tries to stay in 6B+K range, she’s at a greater risk of letting him in. Plus, MD G is plenty safe against 6B+K.
None of this applies to a serious turtle vs turtle fight. You’re from Cali, right? Haven’t you played JFKeith or Cynnick? Those guys don’t make big mistakes, and they turtle hardcore. If you seriously want to out-turtle X, kB/kB2 isn’t the best way to go.
If you anticipate the low, it usually is. Even if 3A is too fast for Pogo K, you still have the stomp.
Which assumes that she’s gonna use 22B up close. X players generally don’t against someone like Yoshi, who completely shuts her down with 1A at that range. If she goes for 22B, stomp will more than likely track her, and there’s a good chance he’ll just throw her out of it as well. Not that Yoshi doesn’t risk anything, just that he can force her to rely on her faster pokes and cut down on big damage options like 22B.
You make this seem way harder than it really is. Even on block, Yoshi’s A leaves him at +1. Granted, it’s a neutral situation, but he’s not at a disadvantage. If X decides to move first, there’s a good chance Yoshi will get in if he guesses right. If not, he could step-guard 3_9 and get in closer.
Uhm, good X turtles will ALWAYS stick to mid-range, 'cause that’s where she’s safest, and it’s the easiest distance to apply 22B. Turtling in general is easier when you don’t have to guess. Just look at her core tools. None of them give her any reason to use them up close.
Yoshi is a serious threat to X if he’s in her face. You yourself have done nothing but praised Mitsu’s ability to force her to guess, thanks to his mixups. But that’s exactly what Yoshi does when he’s in range. Just that, as both you AND I have already stated, Mitsu is better off because he can force mixups without having to risk as much when getting into 2K range.
And just FYI, I’d take Yoshi over Asta against X any day. X is a pretty bad matchup for Asta, unless he guesses right early on and can out-turtle her. If he doesn’t, he’s fucked. He sucks against sidestep at mid-range, and has a hard time getting in on her in general. GI is a high-risk option that doesn’t guarantee anything, so it becomes more of a gamble for him.
Speaking of which, why the fuck wouldn’t Yoshi use GI against X? His post-GI game is almost as good as Asta’s, thanks to his outstanding throws. And while his throws may not do as much raw damage, they hurt like hell anyways, AND they get him in.
I don’t want to interrupt your argument here, so I’ll just offer a few points:
1./ MD~G is safe from 6B+K
2./ A+B -> PG, PG K will nail 3A and 3AK (the PG K ducks under the K :p). That’s about 60% of a life bar gone.
3./ Yoshi vs. Xianghua is an even match. You seem to have a good knowledge of X, but quite a few misconceptions about how Yoshi works. At least as far as this match-up goes. Anyways, I’ll let you two take it from here, btu I just wanted to add that.
let me try cutting alot of this baby fat from this discussion. ive already went over the way i use kb (as ch tool not an offensive attack) so let me just cut out kb stuff.
4a+b? is that the spinning whip that could link to a just frame? well i would love for ivy to run in and be at that range any time of day :lol:
the stomp? again please all ivys come in this range!!! i <3 it when they do! mitsu will tear this broad a new one inclose trust me, hes faster in every way imaginable. what ivy doesnt want is to be in the range of mitsus A’s. once shes there its advantage mitsu. what does she have that is faster or that will beat out something simple like his standing a? ch skills pay off in this match up, if you know youre faster, why do you let her get up in your face? no reason whatsoever. you take control in this range.
what is so great about 2a? lol it is a good keep away tool imo, yah. but its not really setting up anything unless it hits (still its not like getting hit by 2a from yoshi) other than to try to annoy the fuck out of someone. 2a block, big deal she has to go into defensive mode or else shes going to pay (easy CHs) semi did this well against the ivy player he faced at evl in the final 8. that guy tried to abuse 2a and continue attacking after it was blocked and paid for it almost every time.
block , read what she does afterwards and act accordingly. not easy but its not some god move, its not tekken 4 jin lazer scrapper. if you can anticipate it, kb will beat it flat out (kb first hit jumps lows err sm) but that is risky as you know but the damage is huge if it lands
not just sweep, his ability to KNOCK HER DOWN or anyother character. mitsu is one of the best in the game at knocking people down. almost EVERY one of his attacks floors people in positions theyd rather not be in. (8wr3_9** rlc b, post 8wr2_8 b, and mst b6 being the worst place you could be in) not every character in the game has these kind of tools. not to mention his wake ups are arguably the best in the game as well. not many characters can apply this strat. asta is also good at this but still easier for mitsu to floor someone. cervy has excellent wake ups but he cant floor people as easily.
not many characters have a single attack that defeats step. they have to apply an entire strategy to do that. these are just some of the tools i use to accomplish that goal
its not entirely difficult to get into 2k range with mitsu . yoshi has to get even CLOSER than this to be effective. now thats dangerous!
this was basically making the point that mid range, she sucks vs mitsu. she has one superior tool , thats it. hes controlling this range.
walking backwards? and what if mitsu walks backwards? what does she do then? yes walk backwards! again, is she building meter? eventually if she wants to win, shes going to have to HIT mitsu as well. if she thinks mitsus just going to rush in doing retarded moves and letting her CH shes got another thing comin :lol: she has to take just as many risks to get hits in as he does.
how does she win by continually stepping? :lol: again, the point of the game is to take away life from the other opponent. eventually, she is going to have to TAKE away mitsus life to at least have a chance to turtle for a win. so she is going to be open during these stages of the match. if mitsu takes an early lead then what? shes going to rush him down? :lol:
this sounds like a good strat against a character with shitty lows. fortunately , mitsu has a great low. and you attack when step is done. there is lag after steps, theres no continual step. she steps, she finishes stepping, shes open.
what mid range? 3b (punishable) and what? what is this X mid range you speak. and why cant he out space X? i do it all the time. hence, winning turtle vs turtle. wsa+b, how does she plan on getting into range for that move. you keep saying mitsu is going to have to get into 2k range to make her guess, well guess what range all her lows and throws are in? mitsus 2k range :lol: they both have to take risks to give damage in this match.
lets just end this myth right her, because ive NEVER had kb whiff on X. the ONLY character it has a difficult time hitting is talim, thats it.
as for mist, using mist and mist cancels can be used to pressure, especially if youre losing the fight and need a way to get in. if you attempt mist this is what can happen.
-stand still (worst option for her, free throw or mid mix up)
-she tries to attack you asap (risky considering mst a’s have break properties, she can end up in ch a,b6 (nasty wake ups)
-she steps. if you mist cancelled at least youre in her face at this point though, so its forcing her hand and things can pan out in your favor .
as far as i know every step has some lag at the end, except slide step. and ive yet to see someone sliding around all my attacks, in fact ive yet to see it in a serious match . X gi-ing doesnt scare me much to be honest, no serious low or throw. 2g works well against her post gi.
i think the best anti kb strat for asta is to gi the second hit if they whiff the first. you should mix that in as well as catching it with pt, and you should be coo
6b+k has pretty good range. like i stated, you can turtle, and STILL be in this range easily against yoshi. his only decent attack from midrange is 6b8, other than that he needs to be in point blank range to be a threat to her. ive played this match up many times, i ive applied healing before. but like i said, its worthless. you dont have enough time to gain life.
i dont know who these guys are, did they do well at evl? i’ll try to challenge them sometime if possible. again about the kb, it has uses, ive never stated using it in a major way is going to make you successful against X.
stomp dont track 22_888b, it gets hit by it. its risky stuff. 22_88b is a good move on yoshi, unless hes spamming 1as, then the X can just make adjustments to that. the problem is, for yoshi to get IN this range to at least make things happen usually gets him hurt, then she turtles, then its rd over.
its hard bro, i dont know if you play yoshi or not. but id like to hear a yoshi player tell you this is not difficult.
mitsu can mix up X from a greater distance. this is key
astas damage and wake up options are better for his throws. but gi-ing is a good for yoshi too obviously, if only he had those same throw escape windows, it would make things more frightening for opponent.
damn i dont know how to keep this up, i dont think i will reply and you can have the last word. i think we’ve both stated our cases and i dont have 30 minutes to kill at work everyday , i suck at replying and putting in quote after quote, and editing, ugh. kinda repeat ourselves over and over anyway. i will continue to discuss mitsu vs ivy though because i think your opinion on the match is way off from mine.
b4k4. im pretty sure blocked pogo k means youre getting launched by X’s 3b. actually im about 99 percent sure , and unfortunately the only way its going to land is if you totally guessin pogo~k . you cant wait to see the low by that time its too late. so that is a high risk game id rather not play too many times unless i need to come back in the fight.
I kinda butchered this post 'cause it was just way too fuckin long.
Keith, Cynnick, and myself all made it to the final 16 at Evo. They’ve both done exceptionally well lately in tournies down there besides Evo as well. I think Keith is one of the best X players in the US right now, and he’s one of the most solid defensive player I’ve played.
OK, this is irritating me to no end. For the last fucking time, I AGREE WITH YOU!!! I DO think Mitsu is better against X than Yoshi. But I also think you’ve greatly exagerated the difference in capabilities between the two.
As it stands, this whole argument has had way too much theory fighter from both of us. You can’t prove Mitsu beats X just by naming a bunch of moves that work against just about everybody else, 'cause you’re making too many assumptions. Instead, it’s better to think about the likelyhood of Mitsu using move X in a certain situation. Same with X’s moves.
In this case, Mitsu is LIKELY to land 2K against X, thanks to its range and superior damage to most other lows. In addition, her 3A isn’t safe against him OR Yoshi, just that Mitsu gets better rewards off a blocked 3A from outside close range. Thus, he has an easier time applying his tools than Yoshi.
Yoshi still has the means of getting in against X, but he still has to take some measure of risk. Both players are reliant on baiting the correct response and capitalizing on it. You claim Mitsu can apply mixups from a certain range, but so can Yoshi. Heck, if she’s at a disadvantage on block, he can go for the opening and force her to block 66B,[B+K] or 44B+K. Those are free mixups right there.
I know I said I wasn’t getting involved, but I can’t help it.
Who says Ivy is just going to “run in”? Ivy loves to be in this range. Just because she’s very strong at long range doesn’t make her close game weak. 4A+B is a monster for okizeme, and if she uses it near a ring edge, you’re pretty much gone. You’ve made the (incorrect) assumption that Ivy cannot deal in this range. There are more ways of getting in than just running in.
Again, Ivy loves this one. K2 is, IMO, one of the best pokes in the game. It’s ridiculously safe, and gives great advantage on hit. She practically has advantage on block, too, because you’re forced to block it low, meaning that you’re forced to use WS attacks, or RCC. Either way, you’re going to be unable to apply your i10 A here. What does she have that will beat his standing A? Try 2A. Or 2B, if it’s more to your liking. Oh, and 23K.
She doesn’t use 2A to set mixups (like Yoshi); she uses it to reset the situation. 2A is a universal reset button, that she can hit to stop the flow of the match, and start again. Yeah, no shit you have to go on defense if it’s blocked; this is a fact for 95% of moves in fighting games. You’re not really educating anybody on this one. What you don’t get is that sometimes, 2A is a defensive option. Good job for Semi ripping that Ivy player, but just because that Ivy wasn’t smart enough to block after having 2A defended doesn’t mean everyone isn’t.
Damn… I feel like I’ve been missing out now. It’s as easy as just reading her. Please. If you can read, and appropriately react to all potential situations here, every time… I’d love to see it. Saying “read her” is a little vague. I mean, you could say that about almost any situation in fighting games. It’s easy to say; not so easy to do.
Alright… I don’t see the relevance of a universal strength, as it applies to this specific matchup. Is Ivy worse at facing okizeme than other charaters? I don’t get it… It’s not like Ivy is any easier to knock down than anybody else.
Good thing Yoshi has what are probably the best tools for closing a gap in the game. 44B+K? 66B series? MD A+B? 6B+K? Yoshi might have to get closer, but he has a much easier time than other characters getting into this range.
I don’t see how Mitsu controlls this range. X is probably the safest character in mid range. Her damage potential here is better, she doesn’t even have to think about offense. She can practically go on automatic and still be effective.
This is where it seems you’re missing some of the more abstract concepts of this game. Initiating. Nobody, nobody is better at this than X. She can take a completely neutral situation at mid-range, and just reach out and initiate an exchange. She can force people to react to her better than any other character. An outstading example of this is 3A. Xianghua is far better at this than Mitsu, so she has the advantage if he tries to back dash and turtle.
Slide step. Step guard. Step guard does not leave you open, and you can slide step forever (or untill your wrist breaks).
For mid range tools, how about 3A, or 22B, or 6B+K, or AA? Those all reach far enough to be considered mid-range tools. He can’t outspace X because she’s just as competent in this range as he is, and she makes you do something. Saying all he has to do is “get into 2K range and make her guess” with Mitsu is the same as be saying “Get into 1A range and make her guess” with Yoshi. It’s a moot point. The real issue is that you can’t just sit there against her. Everyone takes risks to deal damage in every match.
Just because it’s never happened to you doesn’t make it a myth. I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess you’ve never won the lottery. Is the lottery a myth, too? It does happen. X can’t count on kB missing, but it does happen, and when it does, she can punish it.
Good job, you forced a 3 way guessing game. Welcome to the world of fighting games. 3 layer yomi is one of the most basic and essential tools to the fighting game (3D fighters, in particular). You can’t react to eveything she might do if you mist cancel; it’s still your guess vs. hers. Oh, and just for the sake of completeness, she could just back dash.
The fact that you haven’t seen sombody slide stepping doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. This goes back to my lottery microcosm. Off the top of my head, a player I’ve met who slide steps in serious matches: LAU (who is a well respected player and authority in the SC community).
Yeah, he doesn’t gain any life. But he does get frame advantage, and X at point blank. How can this be a bad thing for him? Either way, MD turtling forces you to do something. The life is a nice bonus, but it’s really there because it forces people to come to him. This is what Yoshi wants. I think that’s the part you don’t get; he doesn’t want the life (though it is a nice bonus), he wants you in his range.
As for mid range tools, how about 66B series, 6B+K, stomp, 33_99 K, 6B:2 etc…?
22_88 B is a good move on everyone, not just Yoshi. Also, if X adjusts to him, it’s not like he can’t adjust to her adjustments. This kind of argument gets us nowhere.
A turtling opponent isn’t that much of a bitch for Yoshi. Along with Taki, he’s the best character for cracking turtles in the game.
ahem I’m a serious Yoshi player, in case that wasn’t apparent yet. It’s not that hard. Xianghua is as good at keeping people out as Yoshi is at getting in. Their strengths are evenly matched here, so he forces X to think harder about keeping him out.
Agreed, but, Yoshi is a lot better at getting into the range where he can force his mixups.
214A+B is an 8 frame break, just like Asta’s B+G6 and B+G4. Yoshi’s throws come out faster than Astaroths, do sick damage, and leave him in perfect range for okizeme.
About a blocked PG K being a free 3B: I don’t doubt it. However, being a Yoshi player, I know that you will only use this when you are 100% sure of a low attack. You aren’t playing this as a wild card, or trick shot gambit at a low counter. You use it when you know they’re coming low. Hence, it shouldn’t really be an issue.
cut out alot of X questions, ive already discussed the majority of them to death.
4a+b is BLAH on wake ups :lol: what can it do? hit you on the ground for a pixel of damage? what can ivy do if someone just lays there or rolls and stays grounded? her wake ups suck, theres no denying that. people make the mistake of just letting slower characters get in on them without retaliating. anytime ivy gets in the range of my A’s and 2A’s i spam the shit out of them, while ivy is the best of the long range characters at fighting in close shes still slower than mitsu fundementally. his 2a is faster, his standing a is faster, he dictates to her in this range. still it is a good move, i just dont see many chances where mitsu would allow her to use it.
again, his A’s are faster. his 2a > ivys in range. i dont allow ivys to utilize this moves like k2 often and no character with a speed advantage over her should. use your speed, make her make it difficult for her to set things up.
im not sounding smart? well if someone wants to put themselves in a defensive position where i have the initiative to attack, i’ll take that any day of the week. reset what? you dont reset against mitsu. he gets in and does his thing quickly, hes not hanging around her like a fly (something talim, yoshi and taki do). 2a would probably be good against those characters, but mitsu is in then hes out again, he has no problem with someone reseting anything. once he sets up for his mix ups, he goes for them then if theyre blocked it resets, if he hits and floors them he goes for wake ups. 2a, again BLAH.
i dont know anyother way to explain it, i just sit there and react to what shes doing. im in no rush at all, i just block everything long range and pick and chose my spots to come in. if they fight more aggressively (which is a bad idea imo) i’ll ch the hell out of her. if they do retarded attacks where i can get from hits i’ll take them gladly, i dont mention specific moves much because i only know what the moves look like and not their notations. if you want a specific counter to something shes doing i can answer that for you. mitsu has the tools to counter everything she does.
went over this before. if taki floors ivy, who cares? her wake ups suck. if another ivy floors ivy, who cares? her wake ups suck. mitsu however, that is the strength of his game. there is nothing universal about the tools he can apply to floor people and fuck them over on wake ups. THIS IS WHAT HE DOES
the only one of these useful against X is 44b+k, but even THIS is also risky thanks to X’s insane 3b. she is one of the best in the game at picking this move apart. 66b, i dont like this move much against X. the tracking , damage potential and lag are all worse than mitsus. not to mention it doesnt even launch at max range. end with b+k/[b+k] youre forcing mix ups in X’s favor, i would only push this move if i was trailing in the match and needed to make something happen. i use 66b,b+k mostly when im running in close mixing with throws not to push the issue offensively. ive also played players that GI the second hit on reaction. md a+b? i would like to know what doing that move would accomplish, i know it goes forward but its only safe from very far, in which case its being stepped. 6b+k, come on bro. this is only good when you know youre getting the natural combo or fishing for a CH. its not used to move forward, that will get you killed but i dont really need to explain that to you.
steps block low? that is news to me. not being sarcastic either. to me it seems like it doesnt. i should test if you could step guard, then have mitsu do his sweep, and see if she can still step around. still havent seen anyone apply sidestep , so until i see it for myself i’ll hold my opinion on that.
its free i tested it last night. if an opponent is being that predictable as where you know exactly when theyd going to 3a so you can apply this, well i dont know what to say about that. but i’ll try to apply it in the future.
actually one thing i was doing against lows last night with yoshi was jump hopkick, it was great :lol: just jump up, low whiffs , hit k and tag on a 6k. yoshis normal 9k sucks :bluu:
Does 50 SENT play any good Ivy’s?
Doesn’t sound like he does.
does anyone now where i can get some good match vids from
Translation: “I’ve already decided my preconceptions are correct, and will not validate your well thought out post with a reply.”
Ok, you roll or stay grounded, then she can 4A+B you again! Even a pixel of damage (which it is considerably more than) adds up, if you get nailed by it enough. She can 4A+B untill you run out of life, or untill you stand up.
Again I want to point this out, because you seem to be unable to grasp it: the slow character is NOT just “getting in.” If they’re in close range, it’s in reataliation to a mistake you made. If she knocks you down, then she can run in, and there’s nothing your going to do to keep her out. What if you’re up close, and get a move blocked? Then she’s at point blank range, with frame advantage. This is not her getting in on you, it’s you getting in on her. It still leaves her with advantage at point blank. This is when these tools come in to play.
Sure his standing A and 2A are faster than her stuff, but they are not unbeatable. It’s not even like that’s a mix-up! 2B will break both! 9A+B will also beat 2A. It’s your guess vs. hers again. You guess wrong, you’re in trouble. You’re just seriously failing to grasp the idea that maybe your attacks up close will be blocked. If they are, then she’s up next to you, and you’re going to have to play her game.
Same point as above. All she has to do to “set things up” is block you up close.
If Mitsu’s mix-up is blocked, it does not reset. Ivy will gain significant frame advantage. 2A on block will push you out to a range which makes the situation practically neutral. That’s what she’s doing with 2A. She’s making you work to get in again. Ivy is damned good on defense, and there are very few characters you’ll have a harder time getting close to. Sure you can say “I’ll sit back and wait for her to whiff” or something like that. What if she has the health advantage? Then you have to bring it to her, and she can play her spacing game all day. She gets to react to you, and at this distance, that’s not much of a problem.
Again, she’s NOT going to just spam attacks at you. She’s waiting for you to move in, and she can pick and choose her spots to keep you out. If any player is doing “retarded attacks”, then are aren’t a good player, and thus completely irrelevant to this line of discussion.
Way to completely misunderstand what I said. Wakes are a universal strength for Mitsu. My point was that Ivy is no better or worse at fighting them off than anybody elseand that everyone has a hard time against Mitsu in this situation, so it’s redundant and pointless to discuss it.
I’m going to go out on a limb here, and guess that you’ve never faced a high level Yoshimitsu. You should hook up with RedfooT, Aris, or Devil X sometime (all Cali players with solid Yoshi’s… though I can’t seem to find it now, since JFKeith is a Cali player, I assumed you were, too), maybe they’ll be able to show you what you’re missing.
44B+K is probably his highest risk option in this scenario, so saying it’s his best option shows your ignorance a little in this situation. Saying Mitsu’s 66B series is better than Yoshi’s is just… wow… so wrong. Seriously, you need to get a few things straight. I’m just going to copy/paste a quick blurb on Yoshi’s 66B series, taken from the Yoshi FAQ I’ve been working on:
I don’t know what more I can try to say to sell this move to you. It’s fast, covers range like whoah… it’s just too good. Nobody cares if it doesn’t launch on a hit at full range, we (being Yoshi players) prefer for it not to launch, so we can force the mix-up at the end of the string, which they are now forced to face standing.
As for 6B+K, it’s success depends on proper application. Also, you have to know how familiar your opponent is with the properties of the string, in order to know how to use it against them. Even just 6B+K as a stand-alone move is good for closing space. Not as good as the 66B series (by far the best move for this in the game), but again, I list it for completeness.
I said step blocks lows? That is news to me. Not being sarcastic either. To me it seems like I didn’t. I should go back and read to back sure. You step the sweep. Step beats 2K (the low in question), it doesn’t block it.
You can react to a 3A. It might sound a little out there, but high level players have seen it enough that they can block it on reaction with startling frequency. Replace block with A+B -> PG K, and there you go. You can see a low. Plus, I’m sure that there have been times when you’ve read your opponent to the point where you know exactly what they’re going to do next. Shit, half of your arguments have counted on this postulate.
WL K is ok, but if you want to nail lows, there are better options. 9B+K is strange, in that it has more jump frames than actual jumps. Thus, it’s better at evading lows. 9B+KA -> PG, PG 6[A+B] works as a combo, if you hit them out of a low. If you’re worried about being blocked, just buffer a 1B+K out of the Stomp, and get yourself some nice frame advantage. It’s NC on hit (albeit for crappy damage), and it’s gives you + frames on block. 9K is good for left side RO’s, which can be usefull from time to time. Also, 33_99 K will hop over lows and RO far forward. Great anti-low near the edge.
Zakuta: You’re more of an Ivy player than I am. Maybe you can help break down her strengths here, since my points seem not to be getting through.
magneto’s son: Soul Calibur Match Vids.
I like necrid… I like him a LOT
Of course, i didnt really start playing this till my roommate got it for PS2, and he was one of the first people i played with…
I think Kilik is better than you guys give him credit for. Of course you have to have X/Cerv up top, but Kilik can be real damn good too.
because its all theory fighting. yoshi could do this if x does this blah blah. the reality is this is what usually happens. yoshis gets pecked by a few xiang pokes, and ends up chasing her the whole game and losing. not fun!
:lol: omg man seriously youre cracking me up. if she runs up and does 4a+b and you roll back youre safe, wake up games over. or roll sideways let that stupid move hit , then roll side ways again or roll back, she has to guess whether to do another 4a+b or not immediately if she does and you roll back youre safe. if shes doesnt do 4a+b immediately you can roll sideways for a small turn, get up with quick attack, or stay down, or roll sideways again, or roll sideways then back. or take a FULL roll sideways, get up with attack or block (i dont like doing this option though because it forces you to stand). even if you roll back and ivy guesses right and runs in, running in she really has no threatening moves you can roll back get up and do a 8k hop kick or whatever, no big deal . her wake ups suck. obviously, here and there she can catch you with a ch big move or a mix up, but the odds are you going to get away from this situation with taking minimul damage. this is something i like compared to tekken games. tekken you have so little options. the only characters that can force solid wake ups are mitsu, asta and cervy. yoshi a bit but it relies on the pogo rush, which of course is a very risky move.
i covered alot of this, if she knocks you down theres a ton of ways to get around her. if her wake up game was strong this would enable the rest of her strong up close game to flow against mitsu, but fortunately for me this is not the case. if shes up close and i do standing a, i dont know much she can to do beat that seriously. block or her, whatever she wants to do its almost 90 percent safe. it will clash with 2as, it will beat her as, it is fast enough to avoid most breaks as well.
what game? what mix ups are coming? :lol: 9a+b SUCKS you just rg and theres no mix up whatsoever. yeah it beats 2a, but it doesnt beat standing A and guess where she ends up when she gets hit by standing A? on the ground lol. what mix up does she have that beats mitsus 8+k? gi-ing it? :lol: just kick that broad in the face 7/10 times, its really funny actually. again, WHAT is she setting up by blocking pokes like standing A or 2a? the only reason you can take advantage of ivys 2a blocked with mitsu is kb. if she does 2a, backdashes, kb is free for damage x 40 percent and wake ups. this means, there is no safe way to use 2a and just back away from harms way. i dont know if ivy has tools to stop backdashing like that, if she does excuse my ignorance.
even if she has health advantage im still doing the same exact thing, i do the same thing the whole damn match vs ivy. look for openings in her keep out game and beat the shit out of her. if they wanna come in and try to mix it up offensively, i’ll gladly trade with her as well. theres no doubt in my mind the majority of the time mitsu will come out on top in this situation, his mix up game and speed is just flat out better than hers, theres no disputing this. i think people are forgetting that my original point to this arguement is that mitsu vs ivy is EVEN. alot of games i’ll whiff attacks and pay, or i’ll eat ch trying to get in etc. but alot of games im also going to impose my will on her as well. its an even fight.
what i mean about retarded attacks is stuff like A, [A] i duck under the second A, take my free fc3b or fc1bb if im in range. if she does 9a+b,b? the jumping move where it hits 3 times, i block the first hit, rg let the 3rd hit whiff and take a free fc3b stuff like that. theres little openings all over the place you can take advantage of.
i did misunderstand your original point but again youre wrong here, because characters have different tools to combat wake ups as well.
my fault like i said i have to post these quickly then get back to work so i made a mistake. what i meant was mitsus same series of attacks (8wr3_9b’s) which is obviously better than yoshis.
44b+k is more risky than 66b, door knocker and meditation stance? :lol: the roll is the only attack out of those there that does not care about step. the rest of them are very linear and in the case of 66b and 6b+k, easily punished.
i dont like 66b too much unless its going for mid/throw mix up like i said or to punish obvious whiffs off step. other than that, i dont like it as an offensive tool. the tracking is terrible, and the second b+k, delayed or not can be gi-ed on reaction, woot!
6b+k series, if youre using it to walk forward you might as well commit suicide on yourself. first hit blocked second hit ducked on reaction and ws move of your choice.
you step the sweep? ok. like i said, i’ll have to test if you can step G, have mitsu sweep as your step is finishing, then step g again to see if you can evade it. if she can, that would make things alot more difficult but it seems like you already know that it will evade it? im not so sure though. this is what ive been saying since day 1 as well. that i attempt sweep after she finishes a step and ive had success doing this to force mix ups agianst turtles.
reading ivy and reading xiang are TOTALLY different. reading xiangs 3a is insanely difficult because she has other attacks that look like it but go mid (one spinning mid strike comes to mind). not to mention its more difficult to react to quick lows in this game than other namco games like tekken because of the guard button. it seems to me if youre holding guard, you have more lag going down to block than if you just tapped down guard when you see a low. many times even if i see the low im holding the guard buttong and the character doesnt duck faster enough. ivy of course has no lows like this except the close range stomp, so i dont really sit back and read xiang. i more kinda space out and stay out of her 3a range and look for patterns in their game. but i dont sit around worrying about her lows, i just think this is playing into her hands. i try to make her worry about mine instead, this is with mitsu of course.
9k doesnt hit consistantly enough for my liking 9b+k series isnt that great at point blank range, usually goes right over their heads :lol:
I’m not being funny or anything, but Ivy’s 4A+B gives her a lot of options. If she is within range to use it, she will, and she will get something regardless what you do in the situation…
You can’t avoid the JF, seen as it tracks to where you move. In the PAL version, there’s an UB glitch, so YAY.
You try and GI, she can delay and go for more damage.
She can get SS or CS on you. Ouch.
She can 2A if you try and step.
She can even get a 9A+BA on you if you step, leading to more mix ups.
Hmm, what else…
AH.
Another 4A+B.
So it’s safe to say that 4A+B is one of her best moves. You just can’t sit there all day against an Ivy that does 4A+B. If you don’t put it into your game, then you’re kidna shit. 
Moving along, I don’t know anyone who does A,[A] w/ Ivy - I mean, yeah, its an A string, but look at what she has already, and you won’t be using it much.
As for 2A, it’s frikkin’ good for halting flow - and then she has BT 2A that hits low. That shit is too good. If her regular 2A was low, you’d be fearing. 2A is fast, has HIDDEN range, and it pretty much beats out what you are going to do every time - BECAUSE IVY’S WONT SPAM THE FUCK OUT OF THE MOVE.
9A+B does NOT suck. lol, wtf - this more pretty much allows Ivy to do anything to you after it hits. Want to go back to the 4A+B mix-ups again? Or do you want to eat another one of those rather than a CS or SS? I dunno - you’ll probably say next “I’ll escape that shit” but that just isn’t the case, because the way you are describing events, means that you haven’t played a single good Ivy ever.
If you duck thinking she’s gonna do a throw; OH NO! 22_88B! Even a 3B is good enough! Ivy has a solid game no matter the range - all leads to big damage.
Oh yeah, back to the ducking thing, she can do up to 50% if you duck. Ugly. =(
We have a few excellent Ivy players here in the UK. I don’t use Ivy much anymore, but I know what Ivy can do no matter where she is. No point saying ‘i’ll do X if she does X’, because you know it’ll never happen, especially when you play an Ivy that’ll utilize all of her tools fully.
You’ll be crying when she starts reading that you’ll do 50% AAs in a match. =(
I got a xianghua question.
Her qcb + BG throw…it does crap damage (39 I think). Is there any reason to use this at all in the place of a standard throw?
There isn’t much reason to throw with X at all.
I understand the whole 5 move thing with her, but throwing is just a part of my overalll game (in any fighting game at all, I throw a lot). So I was just wondering is there anything particularly special about this command throw.