The best way for Vega to beat Zangief is max range Wall Dives, which Zangief can do nothing about. Cr Fierce doesn’t help cuz Vega’s too far away and j Strong gets stuffed. Tokido did not do a single max range Wall Dive, and that’s prolly why he lost.
Word, I hate laming it out as much as the next guy but that’s what you have to do against the good giefs. Get that life lead and then turtle it up.
Also, speaking about that evo match of SE v Tokido, I noticed that Tokido was being really agressive and doing dumb shit like meaty wall-dives against lariats and such. Makes me wonder how much he really knows about hdr. (For peeps information, you can beat out lariats with the tip of Vega’s claw with wall-dive. Must hit Gief around his head hitbox IIRC)
Still in doubt. True_Old_school was telling me pads can give faster execution than sticks in certain situations. He is the true og and I’m the fake one, but still I wonder. Many of you (and me) have played consoles for a long time, using sticks mainly for fighting games. Others hadn’t even played at arcades, and only aquired sticks recently. This means a number of people have overall better - or at least longer - training with d-pads than joysticks.
Many have trouble getting a hadouken on a square gate stick and those Japanese emo Hawks do 360s lightning fast and all sorts of option selects, so anything is possible. The motion for a QCB+F would be like a 360 that does not reach up, and a 270, well, is a 270 motion. I really can not see one being decidedly faster than the other. I still think for good players TK motions are faster than DP motions, and being fast is more important in that case than being easy (say, hold P for 5 seconds is quite easy, but certainly not effective for walk-up SDPs).
IMHO, Gief’s effective buffs are the properties of the moves, the motions are more a matter of impression and do not really help in high level play. As both work, it is perfectly fine.
Anyway, a question for you: can you do QCF+B at the same speed as QCB+F? Some interesting Gief thing is you want to SPD back when cornered, but SPD forward when the enemy is cornered. Or so it should, anyway… I could do SRK quite fast from one side, but would demand Champion Edition speed from the other.
I find it amazing that folks can use the pad… my thumbs hurt after a while. I can never get used to it but I like how it goes back to neutral pretty quickly.
Pad has shorter throws too. If the default controller on the Xbox were a fightpad, I’d expect the current generation of players would have even more pad users.
This.
Chun-Li is one of the worst chars. in HDR. (She beat all of Sirlin’s mains in ST, so he raped her.) Cammy is actually better than her in that game. Some ST Chun-Li players actually decline to play her in HDR, it is such a waste of time. (Talk to NKI and Zass.)
Chun-Li needs her ST SBK vs. Zangief, without it she is toast on knock-down (and even then the fight is still tough in that situation). Best you can hope for is to do the “breakdance” SBK but that is really hard to get out. (Maybe she can do st.MK… Skankin’?)
True Old School…haven’t seen him online much or talked to him in ages. Definitely OG player for real and always a treat to play against. I remember he used to use d-pad for awhile until he got his custom stick built. Either way, that dude was sick with a variety of characters.
Here’s Another Question: Gief’s SPD motion buff - since it’s simplier to do, does this mean one could argue (at least online play) that it would appear as turbo? And does that speed vary with pad vs stick in term of execution?
Breakdance SBK requires being in the air, so you’ll be grounded for 3 pre-jump frames, then you’ll have 18 frames before any attack frames come out, assuming you executed it perfectly, with none of those frames being invincible. If you are trying that, you might as well just being using the “hold up” defense. Your options against any meaty attack are ground SBK (MK and HK have the best invinciblity), upkicks, block, or sac throw. A safe jump beats upkicks and sac throw. SBK loses to a follow-up of any high attack and some mids (even lows if you used LK), and then can be anti-aired on the way down. Blocking, especially against jump attacks which loses you your down charge, leaves you vulnerable to tick throws.
Note that the above is true against all characters, not just Zangief. I’m just making sure the correct info is around.
Also, if people got the impression that I thought Zangief is overpowered, I’m not in that camp. In fact, I think the only person who has explicitly said there was a problem on these forums was damdai. I do, on the other hand, think that people saying Zangief is still the worst character are putting their head in the sand.
I would like to ask that question too, in the addition to the other one. I feel the hand is faster than a single finger, and there’s certainly some scientific study on it, but I got no idea where it would be. Probably some physiology thing. Some test: try mashing with the finger alone, not the pulse. The only way I can get it faster than with the pulse only is using two fingers at the same time.
As for how fast it can be, it may very well be like musicians: some are gifted with extremely good coordination and speed, others gotta work very hard to achieve similar results. That is, indeed there are stick users who are faster then a number of pad users and the other way around. But, would one have two equally trained grounds, I suppose the stick players would be, in general, faster. Still: that depends on the stick. Say, sticks with smaller dead zones can give faster execution.
Many Chun players do not know roundhouse upkicks beat perfect safe jumps 50% of the time, so it should beat like 75% of them, assuming the enemy has a 1 frame precision, that is, half perfect ones, other half one frame later. But Gief gotta land kinda close to her. Anyway, one needs to be good with single button reversals, like a few Hondas are with jab headbutt. To be fair, it isn’t harder than reversal lariat, for instance.
It is possible to kara-cancel the neckbreaker into the air SBK which is faster than jumping, though it’s still not a great option.
Wow, I was completely unaware of that. It actually does seem like it would avoid a max range SPD and hit him, but would leave you in a pretty bad position after.
Just noticed a couple of things from Sirlin’s blog. One is that there is indeed a new faster motion for the SPD:
Say, you are ducking a tatsu or a jumping strong, or you really love ducking. Whatever. You can do a SPD with a HCF or HCB starting from d/b or d/f and ending in u/f or u/b, in the respective order. People used to VST Fei should do it fine.
The other thing is Choi’s and Sirlin’s view on the Ryu-Gief match-up. Perhaps now people will listen to me when I explain why he “loses”*
So, Choi stands that Gief has an edge as he can nullify Ryu’s hadouken. In fact, it is the reason why Ryu loses to Gief, Claw, O.Sagat, Boxer and Dhalsim. Now Dhalsim does not nullify it, he punishes you for it. :annoy: As for Sirlin, he believes the lariat is the main difference between VST and HDR when it comes to Ryu-Gief match-up.
*where “loses” simply means “in average x matches won by Ryu and 10-x matches won by Gief in high level play” where x < 5.
Breakdance SBK is not the mid-air stationary SBK. Breakdance is the instant SBK where Chun-Li’s head is touching the ground. I’m not 100% sure on the best way to get it out, but I have the most success inputting a very quick upward motion (:u: or :ub:) between charge :db: and :r: + :lk:.
Chun Li takes 3 frames to leave the ground with a normal jump. If you do a ground SBK, or a down/up + kick before then, you don’t get the the Breakdance.