Gief isn’t top tier, therefore doesn’t need any nerfing.
Ryu is top tier.
If Ryu is supposed to be middle ground, and he’s top tier, doesn’t that mean he needs nerfing?
Without a doubt Gief is way more beastly in HDR. I play blanka so I have a big advantage in this match and comparing the ST and HDR versions, its a big difference in HDR. He is just so much faster with that green hand to SPD it really gives him a big advantage. Also I can’t really sweep him as easily as I used to be able to back in ST for some reason I don’t know if he has more invincibility or something
This still doesn’t mean its easy to win with Gief though, its still hard, but just not as hard as it used to be for him which was the purpose of HDR right to balance stuff out
In the next patch I’ll ask Sirlin to merge cammy and fei creating cammy-long legs and when I win EVO with him/her a new thread will be dedicated to arguing on who’s more broken. I can already see the impending debate.
“Fei is DEFINITELY the best in hdr did you see how his chicken wing went through that fireball? no way would that happen in st!”
“No way, cammy has hooligan and has the option on whether to slide with or or throw! that’s just too cheap!”
Overpowered character
2009 - E. Honda
2010 - Zangief
2011 - My vote goes to Fei Long
Before Gief, it was Ryu. Just check that consensus match-up thread. Any tier with Ryu above the big four is a joke, IMO: there is no way Ryu is better than Dhalsim, Claw or Boxer. And the cr.forward hit-confirm has to be a joke: this ain’t 3rd strike and he ain’t Chun.
This made me lol
For one, it usually works. I still rarely get hit by Gief Green Handing through a fireball and SPD’ing me, because he still can’t do it on reaction to a fireball. The only time I regularly get hit by a Green Hand into SPD is when I try to throw him and throw the fireball instead. Now THAT may not happen in ST, but that’s irrelevant cos that’s my fuck-up and not Gief being overpowered.
For two, an SPD doesn’t automatically equal Game Over for Chun or really anyone. He can’t even catch back up if he SPDs midscreen, and that hasn’t changed. It’s moderately bad if Gief’s back is to a wall cos he can get a potential second SPD, and Chun in the corner is obviously bad, but that’s no different than ST.
For three, I’m contesting the notion that Chun has no anti-airs Vs. Gief, and Cauldrath’s assertion that Chun can’t safely use these AA’s while zoning Gief. There hasn’t been any changes to my knowledge which make that harder.
What new knockdown on Kick Lariat? Kick Lariat’s feet are invincible; Punch Lariats can hit the ground, now. Sure, if that was the exact same move, that would suck ass, but it isn’t.
Even still, Punch Lariat is not invulnerable, and just cos it can hit ground attacks doesn’t mean it will 100% beat every move every time without failure. You can still hit him out of it with any move where the red hitbox extends past the blue hitbox…which is a lot of moves in SF2. C.Mk and C.Hk can both do this from max range, and Chun players in ST were already doing this, simply cos getting closer than you need to is bad.
As for the Kick Lariat, here’s how you stop that:
- Walk up and do C.Mk; if you don’t hit him, he either jumped or did Kick Lariat. Let’s assume he did Kick Lariat.
2a. If he moves towards you, sweep him.
2b. If he moves away from you, throw a Chundouken; Kick Lariat’s invulnerability ends before the move animation ends, so Gief always has to eat a fireball if you throw one in this situation.
The Lariats, I believe, really give Zangief no new advantage in this matchup.
I apologize for that. But, see the second video I posted for a demonstration of Chun-Li doing reversal SBK to get out of the corner against a meaty splash. Granted, that’s less safe in this game; Gief could probly easily react with a Lariat and get one more SPD on you. But, that’s certainly better than dying, and you can get right back to your game after that.
Take a look at this matchup chart from Vampire Savior really quick: http://darkstalkers.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/vampire_matchup-chart1.png
Look at the 7th character down, Bishamon. He has bad matchups - some really bad - and good matchups - some really good. In the end, the sum of his matchup points is equal to the sum of a character who would have all 5-5 matchups. Bishamon is balanced, in that regard. This is what I meant about Ryu. He can have good matchups, bad matchups, and still be balanced.
Anyhow, I was pretty sure we were having this discussion cos I wanted to know why Zangief is too strong in this game. That’s why I made this thread, in any case. Zangief is not too strong because Ryu isn’t balanced, and Ryu’s balance only has a marginal effect on whether or not Gief would be considered overpowered or not.
I stand corrected on the lariat thing… didn’t realize it was the 2 different ones, but either way, it’s still complete ass, and is even just another option to have to guess against. Must be that “… and more” that Sirlin was talking about on his list. Either way, guess we’ll just agree to disagree about lariats.
And if you want to look at a ranking chart as an accumlitive whole to land in the middle, then fine. But if you have super bad matchups and super good matchups, I don’t care what that adds up too, that doesn’t scream “balance” to me at all. If every match up was a straight 5/5, then you’re straight middle ground, or “balanced”, or whatever. According to your logic, if you have one or two 5/5 matchups, and then say 6 horrible match ups and 6 match ups that a character absolutely wrecks in, that’s a balanced character because in the end they fall right in the middle when you add it all up. That just screams poor planning to me.
In the end this will really just all come down to opinion. Charts are just sitting there playing theory fighter. What you think isn’t overpowered, I might think is totally ridiculous, etc. Look at Vega, there’s a character that probably 95% of the people that play ST or HDR think is totally stupid easy to win with except for the Honda match up. Do you know who the other 5% are that think Vega isn’t a whacked out character? Vega players. And in their mind, they just don’t see it. So it’s all just matter of opinion in the end.
Alright. The only reason I even made a point against it is because this thread is about whether or not Zangief is too strong, and “Zangief is too strong because he beats Ryu and Ryu is supposed to be perfectly balanced” is not a statement which really shows anything about why Zangief is too strong. Zangief’s power doesn’t hinge on Ryu, and there’s still not a lot of talk about specific examples of why he’s really powerful for really any character but Ryu.
This thread is really veering off course, and I’m trying to steer it back on course.
Zangief is Fine.
Snake Eyez is broken.
People that complain about lariat do not understand how it works especially if they think it shuts down footsies or is even comparable to a walkup dp or anything similar.
Go look at the hitbox of either version on startup and get back to me on that.
Very well said.
IMO I feel there is too much R. Zangief this, R. Zangief that, and Snake Eyes isn’t getting much credit for being an excellent gief player
IMHO Zangief doesn’t have the advantage in the Ryu match anyway.
DGV got like three perfects on Snake Eyes during the finals of the tournament.
He also put Snake Eyes in losers bracket first.
Maybe the match is even, but it’s certainly not actually in Zangief’s favor.
The easiest example is jab green hand (JGH) after SPD, which is often going to be 'gief’s best option. Another good example is forward running bear grab from starting range, which significantly improves 'gief’s threat range.
An advantage to consider with item 2 is that, while the motion isn’t really that much easier, it is safer. Consider, for example that negative edge option select possibilities are more viable since it doesn’t force 'gief to jump.
Perfects don’t mean shit, dude. A perfect yields a round just like any one extra sliver on time-over does. If Giefs get in early, they often apply perfects. If they get in later, they get the rounds with a smaller margin. The only differences are Giefs buffs and Ryu’s fake hadouken in relation to VST, where many players (damdai, David Doyle, Futachan, Goth, Gunze, Pony) sai it was advantage Gief. Choi said it was even, Daigo said it was unwinnable for Ryu (reported by NH2). So unless you say fake hadouken makes a lot of difference against Gief (shouldn’t) it is still advantage Gief.
Also who has said it is that bad that Ryu has a bad matchup? Before you keep acting like trolls and creating things so you can argue against, check the thread. Or the whole forum. Pretty much no-one has said that. But Sirlin has said no MU has gotten harder, which is not true to - at least - this MU and against Ken. Does this make HDR an overall failure? Probably not.
gdlk.
Don’t forget to mention that fightpad+easier motions is broken too.
I could’ve sworn that Vega v Gief was pretty free for the vega player in hdr (I main Vega and find zangief to be one of the LOLez matches). Unfortunately SE tearing Tokido a brand new asshole on stage diminishes my credibility a tad but whatevs :looney:
This one wins lol.
Yeah, Q that shit FT
And work that sucker to death.
Come on now work that sucker to death.
I was to lazy to get my arcade stick, so i decided to mess around w/ 360 controller w/ HDR on training mode. I must admit i can pull off Gief walk SPDs & tick into FAB pretty easily, it seems easier to do these on pad then stick.
Vega wins it with his range and pokes, but make just ONE mistake and you’re dead. Its a match you should win but patience is key.
I have did the same thing, too lazy to hook up fight stick :D. The walk up SPD’s came out lightning quick. This is one benefit I can see to using it over a joystick. But I will still stick with the stick 