RE: Various posts.
Yeah I was the one who asked the question last page. I just don’t see SPD’s being easier as a buff when top players do so fast and consistently anyways. I wouldn’t be more afraid of SPD’s from DJFrijoles in HDR than in ST just because they are easier to do. I would bet the difference in speed wouldn’t be noticeable (like 1-2 frames tops). I see your point with one button specials, but it wasn’t made so easy you don’t have to commit to doing it. Walk up SPD’s and doing reversal SPD’s against high jump ins still takes plenty of commitment, so i don’t really see why the less strict SPD motion gets hate. The difference between a walk up SPD and a walk up srk is still huge.
As for what OldSchool_BR mentioned, I was asking has he won any major tourneys period. Tourneys from US, Japan, Europe, etc. I was curious to know if had ever happened. Judging by your response it has never really happened in both US and Japanese tourneys. The best Zangiefs still don’t win in tourneys, despite how incredibly well they may do in a few matches vs. the likes of Honda or Dhalsim. In the Pony Owning @ X-Mania 2002 video, you see him plow through a lot of players (east vs west regionals I believe). Did he win that tourney though? Did he get top 4? http://shoryuken.com/f6/8-24-25-japan-st-national-x-mania-iii-result-8618/ He did not. They hold their own and then they lose. Muteki and Kurahashi have won with Guile. Professor Jones has won with Bison. Dhalsim players have won, despite Vega players like ARG and Tokido (just illustrating characters overcoming bad MU’s). Saying the top Gief players don’t win in Japan because of the top Chuns instead of Zangief being weak sounds aa bit backwards imo. If your point was that his bad MU’s are bringing him down, well the fact he has so many kind of makes him a weak character doesn’t it? I would bet on Pony, Gunze, or DJFrijoles doing very well in US tourneys, but my point was you just don’t really see top Gief winning major tourneys where all the top players show up. He is too weak to win consistently imo. Zangief is solid in ST, but he is still low tier and ultimately weak by comparison.
As for my take on Zangief biggest buff, I’d say it is lariat buff followed by green hand buff. Lariat buff vs Dhalsim and Honda is really important and it is a decent reversal vs stuff like meaty claw rolls, drills, hhs, late buttslam, etc. Green hand buff doesn’t make a difference in getting closer after landing midscreen SPD’s though. Four frames don’t make that kind of difference and it goes the same length afaik. RBG is only really effective vs Guile, DJ, and Gief. It is more of a gimmick vs everyone else.
Man, talk about stirring shit up huh? 
Pasky, I don’t know you that well. But after playing your Guile a while back on GGPO, I have nothing but the utmost respect for you. You’re barely, BARELY second to Marsgatti. I’d love to play you on XBL classic mode sometime. I have lag input on GGPO that I can’t solve for some reason, and it hindered my Fei in our fights.
Now with that being said, please don’t bring up anything remotely close to an HDR vs ST comparison/argument. I know you caught yourself on it earlier, but that’s not the kind of debate that belongs here.
I didn’t think I was, everytime I made a comment on ST it was comparing differences in buffs that others mentioned or to bring up past matchup data that is still relevant. Anytime I even mention ST I bring up the fact that it doesn’t matter and I’m not here for that and all matchups I’ve been mentioning HDR specifics. I don’t think this thread has come close to a ST vs HDR debate. I play both games, I like ST more but I’m not coming to the HDR forums to tell people that, but I will say what I like more added with “in my opinion” while staying on topic.
I really wish I could get on Live to play, it seems there is better player base there. I have an xbox 360, but no Live. I refuse to pay for something I get for free on my PC for years and my PS3.
I think it’s interesting you want to take such a radical stance on Blanka beating Ryu, but man, you better have some pretty good reasons why Blanka would beat Ryu because I just don’t see it. I’d love to hear it though.
Yep. These things make it hard to believe that Blanka now beats Ryu.
I see your point, and I have noticed the Condor Dive not bouncing off but getting him close makes this match a bit more difficult for Sim. I definitely agree on the risk-reward part too. But I'm not convinced that it's in Hawk's favor now.
Hawk spam. If done up close, I’m totally with you. Outside this range, I’m not so sure. I’ve had people try doing the spam thing to me 10-15 times in a row, and since I knew that’s all they were going to do, it became predictable and I kept b+jabbing them out of it. Of course, it’s not easy to do, and yes Sim is more likely to get hit, but if you get the timing down, not only does it shut that part of Hawk’s game down, it can also gets annoying for the Hawk player. I know you’re going to do it before the apex of your jump and you probably won’t do it right off the ground if you’re not close to me since you’d get fireballed, so you’re probably going to do it from between the 10-12 o’clock position. So I know when to get ready. You HAVE to jump in order to do it, so when you do jump, odds are you’re going to do it. Another way around it is the teleport. Yes it is difficult to teleport on reaction, but again, if I know that’s all they’re going to do, then it resets the situation since you’re homing in on where I’m standing. You then look to see if Hawk will try it again when you reappear.
For Hawk’s jf. Fierce, I’m assuming you’re really close when you do it. If you’re doing it as Sim is getting up, then I agree. Otherwise, I would respond by walking under you and doing b+ mp. I might trade in your favor, but that’s fine. If your about 1 to 1.5 char lengths away and jump at me with it, I would jump back and tag you with limbs as you’re falling.
Sorry Jiggly, it was more my fault than Pasky’s. I think I’ve been pretty civil, but it’s your topic and I kinda derailed it. I’d try and steer things back on topic but I already posted and talked about my tier list. What’s your tier list?
Agreed.
It’s kinda hard to talk about HDR tiers without referencing ST. Also, HDR is supposed to be based on the DC version of ST, so it’s kinda hard to talk about frame data without referencing things like T-Akiba’s site.
First of all, I would like to clarify that this is not a flame post. It is just my opinion, which I will try to give base to. I debate and cite Big O’s arguments in the hope he and others will take this different point of view into account.
Well, I do not believe a walk-up SPD is any slower than a walk-up SRK. Not necessarily, for sure. The SPD has a longer motion, but one does not need to decelerate the stick for it. Techniques like the [media=youtube]ePUreRj0IrE"[/media] make it even faster.
As for Zangief winning majors, first of all, it should be clear that the overall number of major tournaments was not that big, depending on what you consider a real major. Is it X-Mania, SBO and EVO only? Also, the game has 16 ordinary characters, plus 16 secret ones (Akuma aside), what would consist of a sufficient number of tournaments for a statically significant analysis? Certainly, no less than a hundred.
Secondly, one can not simply factor the character in question. As Valle has stated, Street Fighter is a game of player to player base. One must take the player into account. When I mention Chun Li, I do not only mean there are 2.5 match-ups around for Zangief, but there are champions like Otochun and Nuki behind those characters. If Pony were to take first place in many Japanese majors, odds are he would have to take some of those from Otochun. Or maybe from Mute or Kurahashi, which as Guile players would not get much easier, as it is a harder match-up. Dhalsim against Claw is not comparable to Zangief against Guile or Chun, that is a whole different level of difficulty.
Mentioning Professor Jones does not add much to the point, in my view, as he, along with 2 more players from France, have shown dominance in the game. It was either him or Wolmar or someone else I do not recall now, so it does not really matter the characters they use, it is the player making a difference there. Does one believe Professor Jones would win if he was to face Pony? No, I do not exclude that possibility, but we all know Pony has more ST training and experience than Professor Jones. Similarly, many good US players use Ryu and (O.)Sagat, and this does not mean Ryu is top or the like: in fact, even though he is a very good character, he suffers against all top tier characters but Chun Li.
The evidence we have is that worst match-ups and their frequency are more important then overall rankings (see NH2’s last comment here). Zangief players have trouble winning tournaments because, while he does well against many of the best characters, he has some very bad match-ups to deal with. Namely, Dhalsim, Chun, Guile and Honda. It is almost impossible to beat a top Honda as Zangief in a best-of-three tournament with Zangief.
Adjusting the balance is not as easy as people believe. Say, one wants to balance Ryu againt Fei, Chun, Guile and Dee Jay. How can you do that, maintaining Ryu’s trademark which is his good hadouken, without screwing Ken even more, as he loses to all those characters?
Pasky, I would say that WW Guile is much better than ST Guile. Far Jab redizzies, CPS-1 chains, retarded anti-air normals and Sonic Booms that do not have projected hitboxes make the whole difference. There are more details, but I do not want to hijack the thread and I do not even recall them all right now.
Maybe someone can explain this in the technical terms for me. We keep mentioning for Sim that while his yoga noogie range was nerfed he still has the fierce throw. Well last night I’m on ggpo and I play this Blanka player. Of course he does the jumping short, strong into the bite. I finally said this is ST you can mash your medium punch(yoga noogie) to counter. Lo and behold it worked. Now in HDR I can say I do not get the yogo noogie out at all and if a button does come out it ends up being a back + strong that whiffs. Again I dont know the technical terms but I am sure even though the fierce throw has greater range than the yoga noogie the startup has to be too slow for it to be a reasonable counter. Trust me if blanka gets in close I would love to throw him and get him off me but it just never comes out. I tried the fierce punch (throw) in ST and it didnt come out at all but the yoga noogie did.
In HDR I have played some very good Blankas, (Bluetallcans, Empirion, DJReign to name a few) and they all use that combo once they get on Sim at a certain distance. The only thing Sim (I) can do is do a better job of not letting them get to that sweet spot range because if they do, that chain will come and it cannot be reversed.
So there is my example of where the yoga noogie is different between the two games. I can show videos of where it gets countered in ST but not HDR if you like but again my question is, is the startup faster for the yoga noogie than the fierce throw? That might not be the right terminology but I know for a fact one comes out faster than the other.
That made no sense…if blanka is doing a jump in tick into standing strong, you can noogie him in ST and HDR. What’s your point? Unless blanka is walking backwards from you (really far) after the tick (and even then you can grab him in a noogie as he does), it shouldn’t make a difference. It sounds like you were just able to throw him because you hit throw at the same time he did and the game did a 50/50 toss up like it’s supposed to if both players hit throw at the same time and you won or blanka just ticked too early and you had frame advantage when he landed, or that he just totally fucked up the timing for the throw after the st. strong tick and you threw him.
This proves nothing other than once again…you don’t understand game mechanics, there is no startup for throws, they are instant…go learn the principles first because what you’re saying is a fact, sure as hell isn’t one.
Now you are pissing me off especially looking at your icon and sig. hahahah Okay Einstein I said I may be using the wrong and incorrect wording but I assure you I can get any Blanka player that does that chain of attacks and in HDR Sim does not reverse it. I am able to do it in ST. Again you DO NOT PLAY SIM so you have no idea what I am talking about. The decreased range in HDR does not allow Sim to counter with the yoga noogie. Blanka players know this and when spaced properly there is nothing Sim can do. Let me find some videos and I will post them.
I play everyone, so ? FYI, I’m also a blanka player. “I can’t argue facts, so I’ll just attack your argument by saying you don’t play this character!”
So why don’t you stop worrying about who I do and don’t play and worry about what’s presented to you. I have a lot of matchup experience in this game and when I don’t know a matchup I’ll say so and I won’t comment. I definitely know blanka vs. sim and it shows that you don’t.
I could easily say you don’t know shit about sim the way you keep trying to drive this throw priority argument into the ground.
I’m really confused by this. Do you mean you tried doing a throw using only towards + fierce and the noogie resulted?
EDIT. Nevermind. I see what you’re saying.
Maybe you weren’t at the right distance, so the animation for the headbutt came out instead, but Blanka walking in during the startup of it allowed for him to get in range for the throw?
Maybe there’s a change in the hitstun properties of the move from ST?
Maybe it’s just luck?
This is a longshot, but maybe lk slide into throw? Or mix it up with c. mk to combo?
I was laughin at your post that said Ryu loses to Blanka and Fei, then even goin as far as sayin its 7-3 in Feis favor. Also at the fact that you said Ryu vs Cammy is even and I honestly didnt know if you were jokin or not, but now I see that youre just inexperienced in these matchups.
Ryu CRUSHES Blanka and Cammy and I dont even have to say why since I see people like Pasky,Shari and Miles already said the many reasons I woulda told you…
Ryu BEATS Fei IMO 6-4. If you wanna listen as to why, Ill give details later on when I get a chance…
I knew what the blanka player was going to do in regards to the jump in and then the punch followed by the bite. I tried countering it by using the fierce throw but it just doesnt come out and that is even smashing on the button. I tried the same using the medium punch (yoga noogie) and I had more success with that connecting. So I was wondering is there a longer startup on the fierce throw as opposed to the yoga noogie. That is all I was asking. And I will have to look in the sim thread but I believe bluetallcans even said now with the shortened range on the yoga noogie that if blanka does the combo right sim can not reverse it because the bite has more range than the noogie. So again I tried using the fierce throw but it just doesnt come out fast enough.
[quote=“JigglyNorris, post:103, topic:122787”]
Man, talk about stirring shit up huh?
QUOTE]
Yeah for real Jiggly 5 pages in 5 days haha nice!
@ DNgrs Papercut - I agree with alot of those points you made about how its easier for Hawk against Dhalsim in HDR but IMO its still definitely in Dhalsims favor overall. Just gotta play a high level Dhalsim that knows how to shut down Hawks dive on almost EVERY attempt… someone like NLP OU!
There is no difference in sim’s mp and hp throw range in ST and they are both instant.
The only bad thing about hp throw is that if you whiff, the fwd limb is not gonna hit at close range even if the other guy does nothing, and it has a horrible recovery. Close headbutt also starts up very slowly, loses to throw/jab/cr short and loses to repeated jumps (whiffed close mp will beat that).
Also, blanka’s bite range beats both dhalsim’s throws in ST by 5 (t-akiba’s data in pixels??).
Not sure how much nerf his mp throw range got in HDR though.
In ST, if blanka attempts to do the mp block string tick throw, I piano mp/hp once to counter throw (not mashing but piano at the correct time). In HDR I guess you have to double tap HP (harder).
Unless his spacing is perfect (~5 pixels outside of sim’s range), it’s at least 50/50 or in my favor.
Sweet poison if your stick has a good turbo, turn it on (20+/second) and try it out. At least then you’ll know it works (hp throw), so it’s just your timing and you can work on that.
[quote=“RoyalPhlush”]
I’ve played T-Hawk in both HDR and ST and despite all of Hawk’s nerfs, there is no doubt that that matchup is FAR easier in HDR.
Since you’ve already named NLP OU, I’ve played against him quite a bit online in that matchup as well as a number of other good Dhalsim players and just based on those results, I have to say that match in now in Hawk’s favor. If Dhalsim plays the match perfectly, he’ll win but with Hawk getting so many more chances to get in, that’s a difficult task. It’s the same phenomenon with Gief in many of his matches now. All his new tools and improved moves give him so many extra chances to get in on his opponent.
Anyway, Papercut is right. You can keep diving at Sim because the risk reward and the damage is so much in Hawk’s favor. The safe dive changes the matchup so much as it leads to so many mixup guessing games for Hawk following the dive, though I wouldn’t go as far as saying it’s now 9-1 in Hawk’s favor. That’s a little extreme. 
Now that was a great post bro. You explained a lot to me which tells me why certain things are happening. Again I probably wasnt wording it properly.
So the bite is actually better than the noogie and his throw. That makes total sense now. I for whatever reason was thinking that at least Sim’s fierce throw was better than the bite. So besides not letting him in, what do I do for a counter? And seriously Sirlin said he did nerf the range on the yoga noogie.
And no turbo on my hori ex stick but I hear you on working on the timing.
Thanks again.
Really? Yeah I know once I get in on any of em its usually a wrap with the mixups and walk up typhoon after blocked dive but I usually just have such a hard time gettin in on the top Dhalsim players. Im gonna play that matchup more and check it out! So would you say the matchup is more like 6-4 in Hawks favor then?